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Over 40 Pre-Hispanic Textiles Return to Peru from Germany

(LIP-ir) -- In the next days, a special diplomatic package will arrive from Germany to the Chancellor's Office in Peru containing more than 40 pre-Hispanic textiles given back to the Andean country in Berlin by Guido Andrighetto, a German collector who decided that Peru was the best place to keep the priceless pieces.

The archaeologist and Peruvian ambassador to Germany, Federico Kauffmann Doig, announced the decision and said that as an expert on cultural heritage preservation, he was invited by Andrighetto to enjoy his textile collection.

Doctor Kauffmann Doig said that among the textiles included in Andrighetto's collection, there were many pieces of Peruvian origin.

The Peruvian representative in Berlin stated that since that visit he was determined to convince Andrighetto to return these cultural treasures.

Kauffmann Doig pointed out that without spending money on lawyers and uncertain procedures, he finally convinced the collector to give the textiles to Peru.

The textiles (most of them belonging to the Chancay culture, as well as Nasca and Recuay, among others) were exhibited the last days of 2007 in the Peruvian embassy in Berlin.

The Peruvian diplomat said that his office was currently finalizing details for the return of these pieces, which will be given to the Chancellor's office and then sent to the National Institute of Culture.

News source: ANDINA

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# Carlos A. Quiroz says :
29 January, 2008 [ 01:32 ]

This is great news, our Indigenous heritage is being stole and sold all around the world, just as the last five centuries since the Hispanic invasion. I respect the work of Ambassador Kauffmann, a Peruvian of European origins who values or Native cultures more than many Indigenous Peruvians themselves. Now, please stop calling our Native cultures as "pre-Hispanic" because Peru is not a Hispanic nation now, nor ever will be. Our ancestors had civilizations that deserve to be called by their own names.

# Anonymous Dave says :
29 January, 2008 [ 08:25 ]

Peru's indigenous heritage is often stolen by Peruvians, then sold by Peruvians to people around the world who unlike Peruvians care for it and look after it... then decide to give it back to Peru for free. Amazing.

Peru became hispanic when Spain conquered it. If you would like to stop it being hispanic, please return to Peru from your lofty position in DC and kindly ask the people to stop speaking Spanish and stop going to church.

# David says :
29 January, 2008 [ 11:18 ]

Anonymous Dave,

I have to say that I am not fond of the use of this made up word. Yes all words are made up or derive from somewhere but the word Hispanic is a lazy way of describing anything that has to do with the Spanish language.
So now we have, Peruvians and Cuban's, Argentineans and Puerto Ricans or Dominican's that all fall under the same blanket. They have very little in common other then the fact that at one point in time the Spanish conquered there land.
I am of the opinion that these areas or artwork are better described as Inca, Mayan or from there respective country of origin.

But this is just my opinion. What's yours?

# Anonymous Dave says :
29 January, 2008 [ 12:39 ]

You are right David, the textiles shouldn't be referred to as pre-hispanic when they can be more accurately described as Moche, Inca, Aymara etc.

But Latin America is Hispanic because it has been hispanized by the Spanish. Puerto Rico is hispanic. Peru is hispanic. Mexico is hispanic. If you are lucky, you'll find small places in these countries that have not been hispanized and that are not hispanic, but the countries as a whole are.

I don't think your argument stands that Latin America can not all be called hispanic because they are totally different because;
1. They are not totally different and do have commonly unifying aspects of their culture, because of the Spanish. You might argue that Peru and Zimbabwe shouldn't be classed in the same group and that would make sense, but to say Peru and another Latin American country should not be lumped together when talking about the wider-world doesn't make sense in my opinion.
2. Why call Latin America anything at all. Yes all the places are different. So is Europe. It would be silly to argue not to call European countries European... because they are. As the UK, Australia and the US are overwhelmingly 'Anglo'.

I only took exception to Carlos saying Peru is not Hispanic. Maybe he hasn't visited for several hundred years.

# Carlos A. Quiroz says :
29 January, 2008 [ 13:01 ]

You see, we see things very differently. Spain never conquered our continent, they invaded it. And it was with the help of Indigenous civilizations that thought they were allies, so they took over our ancestors land. Invasion not conquest.

Now, we are not Hispanics just because we speak Spanish (one of several languages spoken in Hispania) or because most people follow a jewish-middle eastern religion.

We also speak over 30 Indigenous languages and our catholicism fusions Native and African beliefs. Bottom line, we are not white, nor Arabic to be called Hispanics. Lots of people in Africa speak French and English, and they don't call themselves Britons nor Francos, or whatever name.

Our ancestors had a name, which the Hispanics intended to erase forever. Are you one going to do the same?

# Anonymous Dave says :
29 January, 2008 [ 13:32 ]

After the Spanish invasion of the continent they did  indeed conquer it. The wiped out the traditional culture and enforced their religion and language on the people. This is conquering. The people were conquered. I completely understand your desire to pretend that the peoples of now-named Americas in all those hundreds were not conquered. But they were. If they were merely invaded, the Spanish would have left shortly afterwards. But they didn't. After conquering the continent they stayed on and colonized it.
The only difference in what we see is that I see correctly and you see and imaginary happy land where the Spanish never forced their culture onto the people, and that signs of Spain remain. (That they do remain suggests... oh wait... that the place was conquered.)

No a person is not hispanic just because they speak and hispanic language or follow the Spanish conquerers faith. A person is hispanic because they have a hispanic-influenced culture. All of Latin America shares similar aspects of their culture. Its why a Mexican would not feel too out of place in Peru, or a Peruvian in Chile... because the countries are hugely similar and thus can be grouped together when we are talking about a larger world. I.E. Anglo cultures, Chinese Cultures, West African cultures, Arabic cultures and Hispanic cultures. Denying these easy (maybe even lazy) groupings make sense is idiocy.

By some good luck, the African cultures you refer to are not Anglized or Francofied. The French and Brits didn't want to destroy their cultures, only control them. Its good that the decedents of the French and Brits do not control the countries of an unfair share of wealth in them. Unfortunately, in Latin America, the indigenous cultures that still practice their languages are in the minority or in minority power (Even in Bolivia, were you won't find any Aymara religion following, speaking, dressing, etc person in the majority).

Unfortunately, Latin America is well and truly hispanic. Your ancestors had a name. A few still have a name. But these names are not relevant any more, in an Hispanic America.

# alaskan_sol says :
29 January, 2008 [ 14:37 ]

I hear and completely understand you dave, but there's a subtle negativity to you that forces one to take the defensive.

I was involved in an argument in the U.S. when I said "Latino" and the person who took offense would rather I had said "Mexican." Dont think a Salvadorean would appreciate me calling him a Mexican. And In Peru, Aymaras dont want to be mistaken for Quechua. Should I object the next time I'm called a gringo? So what is one to do? My experience in this is that 'Hispanics' tend to not, for whatever reason, like the blanket discriptions given to them by non-Hispanic cultures.  So I grudgingly take your side in this one Dave. (this is not the first comment Ive read from you)

# David says :
29 January, 2008 [ 15:47 ]

My distain is for the word not the meaning.

When I was a kid in grade school you were from Ecuador, Peru or
Venezuela.

And you were generally classified as Spanish. As per the language you spoke. Of course that does not hold true world wide or I would then be English which I am not.

My only point is I don't like to just lump a few hundred million people into one pot. Yes 1 common thread but many pieces of fabric.

I hope I've explained myself in a way that makes it easier to understand.

# Carlos A. Quiroz says :
29 January, 2008 [ 16:08 ]

Anonimous Dave is plain wrong.

For him to say that there are not Indigenous cultures and religions in the Abya Yala continent (America) well he must be out of his mind. Over 900 Native nationalities remain alive and growing in our continent, from Alaska to Tierra del Fuego. Over 150 million brown people who claim proudly our Indigenous heritage, and the UN just adopted the Indigenous Peoples Rights Declaration.

Hispanic people who actually moved to this continent since their invasion never outnumbered brown people. And while is true that they imposed a language and a religion, but "their" language was an imposition of the Romans and their religion came from Judea. Spain itself was invaded by the Arabs for 800 years but the Spaniards don't call themselves Arabs.

Most Spanish-speaking people in Latin America are either brown Indigenous people (including mestizo Indigenous) or Afro descendants. It is false to pretend that no other culture flourished in our continent; for once we are the most African influenced land besides Africa. We have a strong Asian influence as well. We still speak our languages, we still celebrate our Native holidays and deities, covered up with Catholic rituals, we cherish our ancestors knowledge. We still believe in our traditions and respect of our Pachamama, we are still here.

And we are not pre/post Hispanic. We are Indigenous and our cultures deserve to be called that way.

Now Dave let me ask you. Are you white? Do you really think you can put a title over our heads and name our cultures at your own will? What the.

# Carlos A. Quiroz says :
29 January, 2008 [ 16:08 ]

Anonimous Dave is plain wrong.

For him to say that there are not Indigenous cultures and religions in the Abya Yala continent (America) well he must be out of his mind. Over 900 Native nationalities remain alive and growing in our continent, from Alaska to Tierra del Fuego. Over 150 million brown people who claim proudly our Indigenous heritage, and the UN just adopted the Indigenous Peoples Rights Declaration.

Hispanic people who actually moved to this continent since their invasion never outnumbered brown people. And while is true that they imposed a language and a religion, but "their" language was an imposition of the Romans and their religion came from Judea. Spain itself was invaded by the Arabs for 800 years but the Spaniards don't call themselves Arabs.

Most Spanish-speaking people in Latin America are either brown Indigenous people (including mestizo Indigenous) or Afro descendants. It is false to pretend that no other culture flourished in our continent; for once we are the most African influenced land besides Africa. We have a strong Asian influence as well. We still speak our languages, we still celebrate our Native holidays and deities, covered up with Catholic rituals, we cherish our ancestors knowledge. We still believe in our traditions and respect of our Pachamama, we are still here.

And we are not pre/post Hispanic. We are Indigenous and our cultures deserve to be called that way.

Now Dave let me ask you. Are you white? Do you really think you can put a title over our heads and name our cultures at your own will? What the.

# Carlos A. Quiroz says :
29 January, 2008 [ 16:08 ]

Anonimous Dave is plain wrong.

For him to say that there are not Indigenous cultures and religions in the Abya Yala continent (America) well he must be out of his mind. Over 900 Native nationalities remain alive and growing in our continent, from Alaska to Tierra del Fuego. Over 150 million brown people who claim proudly our Indigenous heritage, and the UN just adopted the Indigenous Peoples Rights Declaration.

Hispanic people who actually moved to this continent since their invasion never outnumbered brown people. And while is true that they imposed a language and a religion, but "their" language was an imposition of the Romans and their religion came from Judea. Spain itself was invaded by the Arabs for 800 years but the Spaniards don't call themselves Arabs.

Most Spanish-speaking people in Latin America are either brown Indigenous people (including mestizo Indigenous) or Afro descendants. It is false to pretend that no other culture flourished in our continent; for once we are the most African influenced land besides Africa. We have a strong Asian influence as well. We still speak our languages, we still celebrate our Native holidays and deities, covered up with Catholic rituals, we cherish our ancestors knowledge. We still believe in our traditions and respect of our Pachamama, we are still here.

And we are not pre/post Hispanic. We are Indigenous and our cultures deserve to be called that way.

Now Dave let me ask you. Are you white? Do you really think you can put a title over our heads and name our cultures at your own will? What the.

# Carlos A. Quiroz says :
29 January, 2008 [ 16:11 ]

Anonimous Dave is plain wrong.

For him to say that there are not Indigenous cultures and religions in the Abya Yala continent (America) well he must be out of his mind. Over 900 Native nationalities remain alive and growing in our continent, from Alaska to Tierra del Fuego. Over 150 million brown people who claim proudly our Indigenous heritage, and the UN just adopted the Indigenous Peoples Rights Declaration.

Hispanic people who actually moved to this continent since their invasion never outnumbered brown people. And while is true that they imposed a language and a religion, but "their" language was an imposition of the Romans and their religion came from Judea. Spain itself was invaded by the Arabs for 800 years but the Spaniards don't call themselves Arabs.

Most Spanish-speaking people in Latin America are either brown Indigenous people (including mestizo Indigenous) or Afro descendants. It is false to pretend that no other culture flourished in our continent; for once we are the most African influenced land besides Africa. We have a strong Asian influence as well. We still speak our languages, we still celebrate our Native holidays and deities, covered up with Catholic rituals, we cherish our ancestors knowledge. We still believe in our traditions and respect of our Pachamama, we are still here.

And we are not pre/post Hispanic. We are Indigenous and our cultures deserve to be called that way.

Now Dave let me ask you. Are you white? Do you really think you can put a title over our heads and name our cultures at your own will? What the.

# Carlos A. Quiroz says :
29 January, 2008 [ 16:27 ]

My apologies by the repeated comments. My computer is acting weird.

# Anonymous Dave says :
29 January, 2008 [ 17:30 ]

You seem to think "hispanic" is a race, what's worse is that you think I suggest that. Read what I have written carefully, then come back here.

Do not LIE by suggesting I think that no native cultures exist.
Do not LIE by suggesting that the indigenous culture (not race, not 'brown' people) is in the majority.
Do not LIE by suggesting there are "indigenous nationalities" or "nations". This is a sad concept invented by people who wish history was different (like me) but also can't accept reality (unlike me).
Do not LIE by suggesting there was ever a continent called Abya Yala. Learn the history of the tiny part of South America vaguely but not difinitively refered to by this name.
Do not LIE by suggesting that I said white people outnumber indigenous.
Do not LIE by saying the Americas were not conquered.

With all these lies, anyone might thing as well as being a nationalist socialist pig, you are also a liar.

Hispanic countries in Latin America are a group of nations sharing a similar culture, one brought mostly by Spain when it conquered South and Central America. These countries speak the same first language, share the same majority religion, share a similar history, share many traits not shared by say, the Japanese, and also share hints of the same blood.

Carlos. I understand you. I know you want certain things to be true, and I know your beliefs are well intentioned. By extremist views, denying facts, and lying only hurt your cause and make you look stupid.

It would be nice there were still indigeous nations. It would be nice if the Americas were not conquered. It would be nice if hispanic culture was not dominant. But what I would like and what is true is not always the same.

...

And how dare you call me white! I am a proud half Viking half Pict. My two nations still exist and never gave way to the modern world!!! European!? How racist of you! I, as a Viking-Pict, have nothing to do with anything in Europe!

...

What utter non-sense.

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29 January, 2008 [ 17:43 ]

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# Anonymous Dave says :
29 January, 2008 [ 17:55 ]

alaskan_sol, david,

I think you both make a valid point, in that people don't generally like being lumped together and labeled. Completely understandable in my opinion.

But...

It's what we humans do. We compartmentalize and group things together, dividing them so we can better understand them.

I'm sure everyone from every country understand this to some extent and has a preferred label for themselves. I.e. the the Mexican, he is not Latino, to another he is not Mexican but <insert tribe here>, to another he is a happy to be called a Latino.

I'm happy to refer the the people of Central and South America as "Latin Americans". But then this would annoy your mexican associate who is not "Latino". The truth is, because of the related culture in this region we are referring to, the Latin American inhabitants can and ought to be grouped together when talking about the wider world. It wouldn't make any sense to say we have Japanese, West Africans, Anglos, Aztecs and Arabs. One of those is, i'm afraid, on a different level.

So what do we call the people of Latin America who share a similar culture or at least very similar traits? Perhaps by the overwhelming majority culture of hispania? If not, then I am happy to use another name. It wouldn't change the fact, however, that the people of Latin America DO share a similar culture, WERE conquered by the Spanish and had it forced on them, and that they SHOULD be grouped togther when talking on a big enough scale.

Carlos, in my opinion, has his heart very much in the right place, but his brain elsewhere. I find people of an extreme political opinion, such as socialists, nationalist, pure capitalist, facists, etc to be... at the very least irritating and I know this can come across as agressive when I write. I don't want to offend anyone, not even Carlos.

Sorry if I did sound a bit harsh.

# Carlos A. Quiroz says :
29 January, 2008 [ 17:56 ]

Latin America is not a homogenous region with one only Hispanic identity. It’s is rather naïve and arrogant for anyone to think that Spanish culture is more important that the Native cultures that were created in this land, or the African cultures we share in this land, or the Asian cultures we share in this land, even the rainbow of ethnic influences we even have among Indigenous peoples can't be denied. It is plain wrong when an outsider tries to define my history, my people, my ancestry, my land, and my culture.

# Anonymous Dave says :
29 January, 2008 [ 18:12 ]

Yet again, not what I said. Not even close, Carlos.

# Carlos A. Quiroz says :
29 January, 2008 [ 18:29 ]

This is not about you Anonymous Dave. Give yourself a break.

# Anonymous says :
29 January, 2008 [ 19:47 ]

The term “Hispanic” was introduced into the English language and into the 1970 census by government officials who were searching for a generic term that would include all who came from, or who had parents who came from, Spanish-speaking countries. It is, therefore, an English-language term that is not generally used in Spanish-speaking countries.

# Here's Johnny says :
29 January, 2008 [ 21:56 ]

The term hispanic is hundreds of years old and refers to the people of the Iberian peninsula.

In America it now used to refer to people of the Spanish influenced world.

I agree that Latin American countries have a shared culture and brotherhood. It is not strange in my opinion to group Latin American people under one term. Maybe *hispanic* or something else.

# LD says :
30 January, 2008 [ 14:36 ]

This is really a hot topic in the north as well. As a Lakota of the Great Plains I've witness the change from Indian to American Indian to Native American.  Just because we lost the war does not mean I'm English or because I speak the language or anything else for that matter. The English, French and Americans defeated the Germans in WW2 what do we call them today Germans ditto with Japan. All cultures have the right to name themselves. Regadless of the amount of assimilation forced apon them. The Indigenous of Canada speak french, in the US it's english and the rest spanish. This does not mean we are anything but Indigenous !

# LD says :
30 January, 2008 [ 21:02 ]

This comment was deleted

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# David says :
30 January, 2008 [ 21:43 ]

LD,

How is it that on one hand you can make a well presented statement and on the other turn into a complete...

I respected your response as very reasonable and well thought out. Then you go and leave  behind such garbage that will only be deleted from this forum.

But in all our minds we will know what you are made from.

# Anonymous Dave says :
30 January, 2008 [ 22:03 ]

David, I doubt it was the original LD. You've just fed a troll.

# David says :
31 January, 2008 [ 01:47 ]

Thanks, Anonymous. And if that is the case, my apologies to you LD.

I could not let that kind of things go. Hopefully I'll have better control of thinks like that in the near future.

# Bluue says :
31 January, 2008 [ 04:00 ]

I find it sad that it takes a Peruvian who lives outside of Peru to be proud of his indigenous ancestry. The majority of Peruvians living in the city do not wish to be identified or associated with their indigenous roots. There are derogatory words such as "cholo" and "indio" to describe an indigenous person and the stereotype of the "poor, ignorant country native" crops up commonly on those wonderful comedy shows they have on TV. Some of the damaging impacts of colonialism.

# David says :
31 January, 2008 [ 10:46 ]

I am sure that many people a proud of there indigenous history and background. You don't need to voice the fact that you are proud. It is just something you are.

I get your point that these very same people that live in a way much of us can not understand are ridiculed in every way conceivable not only in the streets but by the media as well.

# LD says :
31 January, 2008 [ 13:18 ]

Thank You Anonymous Dave I left only one message. No apologies are necessary Dave. And concerning your comment A quote by Vin Deloria comes to mind. Natives are like the weather. Every knows all about the weather, but none can change.

# Magdalena says :
31 January, 2008 [ 22:08 ]

Hello Vikings, Quechuas, Picts, Aymaras, Goths:

Peruvians like myself do not like being referred to as "Hispanics".  We are a proud people with a fabulous heritage.  I live in the US and when filling a form, I never check "Hispanic"....I go to "other" and write down Peruvian-American.  I never want to lose my Peruvian identity......it's my greatest treasure! I honor my mainly-Iberian side, as well as my Quechua side. I also honor the ethnicities of the rest of the Peruvians......that is, African (especially when we all came out of Africa), Italian, Japanese, Chinese, French, German, Arab, etc.

Carlos Quiroz, you don't need to be rabid defending our indigenous heritage......let it speak for itself!  We don't need to proof that the legacy of our native people is great.....all of Peru is a great museum which highlights the vast capacity of this people, in the way of its architecture, ceramics, metallurgy, etc.  Just be happy you were born in a priviledged land and have sweet dreams about it tonight, ok?

In general, please respect the "livinginperu" forum and refrain from being insulting. This is a wonderful way to communicate our ideas, let's keep it that way.

# Bluue says :
31 January, 2008 [ 22:12 ]

Everyone is proud of Machupicchu and the cultural relics. I'm talking about the majority of urban populations in countries like Peru, Chile, Ecuador, etc., of mixed ancestry (majority of population), who prefer to dissociate from being indigenous themselves. It's not about voicing their pride, it's in fact, not having that pride and not identifying with it. This is a clearly acknowledged phenomenon that is documented in literature, visible in the media, on the streets and observed by people of these very countries, largely as a result of colonialism and how people were brainwashed to be ashamed of their indigenous culture. This is nothing new, the systemic attempts to eradicate indigenous cultures by colonists has happened in history all over the world - Canada, U.S. Australia, New Zealand and Japan to name a few. There are varying attempts to reclaim identities, restore lost cultures and traditions, but denying this is like denying the white elephant in the room.

Anyways, this is merely my personal observation and opinion. I do not claim to be an expert into natives as you insinuate LP and I acknowledge that we are just watching from the sidelines, unless invited to participate.

# Magdalena says :
31 January, 2008 [ 22:30 ]

Lastly, I think we're all way off the track.  The article read: "Over 40 Pre-Hispanic textiles return to Peru from Germany".  Why are we discussing "hispanic" and "latino"?   Oh.....I see, it was Carlos Quiroz who took us down that path.

I think it's great that Ambassador Kaufmann was able to persuade Mr. Andrighetto to return our ancient textiles to Peru.  There are many other Peruvian treasures in universities, museums and with private collectors which should be returned to our country.  It is not for other people to decide that they would take better care of our treasures......that is a very arrogant attitude. That's was Elgin's haughty attitude when he decided to take Greece's treasures back to England.  If you have a chance to go to the British Museum, be sure to see "Elgin's Marbles" and though you may not be Greek, you will feel outraged to see what was stolen from Greece. 

# Anonymous Dave says :
31 January, 2008 [ 22:31 ]

Magdalena,

The word "hispanic" is a lesser issue. The question is whether Peru and other Latin American countries share a similar easily grouped together culture. I think the answer is clearly yes. What is (now) the largest influence and aspect of this shared culture? A hispanic one. Therefore "hispanic" is an easy and readily available term.

If the word is not liked very much by the members of the shared hispanic -influenced culture, dispite the word being completely logical (much like calling someone from Ghana and someone from Nigeria "west africans") then thats fine. Perhaps we could find another term, such as... say...
 "Spanish and Portuguese culturally-influenced and genetically-influenced indigenous Americans".

# Magdalena says :
31 January, 2008 [ 23:07 ]

Anonymous Dave:  "an onyma" = without a name (from the Greek) Dave, you're not anonymous...you do have a name.....

In any case, you can call us "Western South Americans", if you wish.....but that still doesn't define us.  What do we have in common with Chileans to justify being grouped with them?....ok, the Spanish language.....but hey! you can't compare oranges to apples......they are both fruits, but very different. What do we have in common with Colombians, beside the language?  Dave....we don't share a "similar, easily-grouped together culture" with the rest of Latin America enough to label us all "hispanic".

# Carlos A. Quiroz says :
31 January, 2008 [ 23:24 ]

Thanks LD and Bluee for your comments. Let me follow up. Something that I have seeing while visiting Indigenous towns in the US and other countries of this continent, is the extreme similarity that exists among our cultures and ways of living, not to mention physical features. Place a Native American person in a street of Lima or Arequipa and people would think that person is another Peruvian. Take a Peruvian from Trujillo or Chiclayo in a street of Mexico, Alburqueque or Guatemala City and no one would notice is a "foreign" person. That is because we share a Native common culture and ethnic background.

But you can't the same thing if you take an Indigenous Peruvian to Buenos Aires,  Curitiba or San Juan. Differences are huge and not just about looks. You can't say that a "paisa" from Medellin shares the same culture with a "kolla" from Potosi. A mulato farmer from Brazil doesn't share much with a Portuguese from Caracas or a Palestinian from Valparaiso. Latin America doesn't share a unique culture. I have never ate burritos (a Native dish actually) before coming to the US, nor I knew much about salsa or bachata music. I don't relate with Spanish traditions like bull fights, flamenco dances or the way the speak Spanish for example.

About Magdalena's comments. I respect your vision of what being Peruvian means, but I don't share them totally. And please don't blame me of anything or suggest what I need to do or write. Gracias. Yes Peru is a great museum, but what are we Peruvians of today doing that impress visitors? Who travels to Peru to stay in Lima. Our "museum" is all about our Native cultures that are terribly called "Pre-Hispanic" as to erase our presence or to demerit who created those works.

Bluue your comments are very important, because you have taken my point and noticed the tragic reality among Peruvians who live in urban areas, who are thought in schools and by the media that just because we speak Spanish, dress contemporary clothing instead of traditional regalia, or listen to reggaeton or metal rock, then that is enough to convert us into Europeans or "mestizos" as a synonymous of progress.

Also, some people base our "Hispanic" heritage on our last names. But most of Peruvians forget or ignore that we inherited those Spanish last names by imposition, as Native and African names were erased and slaves and servants were named after their slave masters.

Let me finish by saying that unfortunately colonization hasn't stopped in Latin America and today's education in that region is intended to exterminate our history, our identities, it is the worst crime that we have to face today beside unfair economic policies. Look at the content of media in Peru, what Peruvians see as the norm to accepted. They have to be racist, ignorant, selfish, conformist, lame and disrespectful. I as a Peruvian can't have access to the media and told my fellow countrymen to take pride on our heritage without being accused of being a terrorist or a racist pig. There is a lot of work to do in that sense.

# Anonymous Dave says :
31 January, 2008 [ 23:28 ]

The name is a joke.

No you can't compare oranges and apples... unless your talking about food generally, in which case, as your so rightly said, they are both FRUITS.

Let's say you can't compare Peru and Chile, or Peru and Colombia.... but what if we are talking about world cultures. There are Anglo cultures,  Nordic cultures, Slavic cultures, Arabic cultures, West Africa cultures... and South America cultures.
Peru = Apple
Chile = Orange
Hispanic = Fruit
Humans = Food.

If it's the word "hispanic" you dislike, that's fine (dispite it being a logical choice as it is majority aspect of the culture). "Latin" Americans is can probably be argues to be less accurate.

Besides, I think there are many comparisons to be made with Peru and Chile, or Peru and Colombia, as I think there are with Ghana and Nigeria, Vietnam with Laos, India with Pakistan etc.

# Anonymous Dave says :
31 January, 2008 [ 23:35 ]

Carlos,

No, there is not a lot of similarity between a Peruvian and an Argentine, whether we talking about culture or race.

But, there is a lot of similarity between the cultures of Peru and Argentina, thanks to the Spanish, when we add... Zulu, Burmese, Russian and Morrocan to the mix. So you are wrong. Peru and other Latin American cultures share a similar culture.

# Bluue says :
31 January, 2008 [ 23:42 ]

Magdalena,

I think it's great that you have such a strong identity and pride for your country and a positive, open dialogue with other cultures.

On this issue of semantics, I believe there is some validity in some term that would encompass a similar group/history/culture. In no way am I suggesting that Peru, Colombia and Ecuador are the same, however, they are more similar than Peru vs Canada or Peru vs Korea. Just as there is this term East Asians, that encompass Chinese, Japanese, Koreans. That doesn't make those three countries the same culture and definately each country is quite unique with their own language, history and cultures, but they are comparatively more similar than China and Brasil would be similar. I think that might be the point that anonymous dave is trying to make.

It comes down to what you interpret "hispanic" to mean. If it means to you that it is lumping all the countries together in a homogenized identity, of course you won't like it. No one is saying the countries in Latin America are all the same. But it's about general to specific. We can say tree, which encompasses all trees, we can see deciduous trees, evergreen trees, and we can get into more and more specific categories like palm trees, then, what kind of palm trees, etc.,

Different words are used to mean different things. What word would you prefer to use that would have the function of describing similar countries who've had somewhat similar histories and cultures in Latin America? People in U.S and Canada are often described as North Americans. Peoples of Europe are commonly described as European. Would Latin American not be a suitable word at this level of categorisation?

# Bluue says :
1 February, 2008 [ 00:02 ]

Carlos, I identify strongly with native peoples' right to self-determination and am disgusted with past and present injustices and mistreatment of indigenous peoples. Just look at that bill Garcia is trying to pass in Congress with the "La ley de la Selva". Another sneaky way of disinheriting people from their land. It is important for more and more people to raise consciousness and awareness, such as you have demonstrated. When I was working in Suriname, an aboriginal group from Canada was on its way to exchange its knowledge of land claims with the indigenous Amerindians in Galibi, who were working on land claims issues there. A lot of work to be done indeed...

# Carlos A. Quiroz says :
1 February, 2008 [ 00:07 ]

Thanks Magdalena for asking the million dollars question. In my opinion the answer is: there is not a single word to define Latin American cultures. We are a geographical region, and that is it. We are not and we don't have to be an only community put altogether. We do we need to content the simplistic view of some who try to say "all of those south of the Rio Grande are the same" simply because it's not true and never will be. Look at our "Latino" community in the US, we are not united neither. All I suggested is that our Native heritage to be recognised when it should, as for example when we talk about those cultural objects that have been rescued in Europe.

# Carlos A. Quiroz says :
1 February, 2008 [ 00:13 ]

Bluue

Thanks for your reply. Exactly, that is another reason on why some interest groups in Peru do not want Peruvians to be concious of our Native heritage. That way, we won't care about each other.

How can I remain silent of the suffering caused to my people in the Amazon basin forest in the name of "progress" ? that is just plain senseless.

About Alan Garcia, he is another example on how a descendant of Indigenous peoples work against his own people. He has a tendency to defend foreign businesses and their interests, and I believe he was place in power by them.

Please email me to qc dot carlos at gmail dot com.

# Magdalena says :
1 February, 2008 [ 00:26 ]

Bluue:  I guess "Andean" would be more specific......maybe.

Carlos: I think Peru does a better job than other South American countries of acknowledging its indigenous legacy.  Peruvians also acknowledge, and are proud of, the African contribution. I was happy and proud to see the group "Peru Negro" perform in Northern California. I know they wouldn't have made it as a professional cultural group if they hadn't had the support and encouragement of the Peruvian government and the Peruvian people.  Nothing is as it should, but be fair.

By the way, when I travel the world no one even comes close to calling me Peruvian. I've been called Persian, Lebanese, Egyptian, Italian.  I once was telling someone I was from Peru and he asked: "Beirut?".  Once I was in Cairo and a local thought I was a Cairene and I said I wasn't....he frowned at me and said: "Oh, come on! don't deny you're Egyptian!"  So, what does that proof, Carlos?   I guess we're "Universal".  Read "The Journey of Man" by Spencer Wells.

# Anonymous Dave says :
1 February, 2008 [ 00:40 ]

Carlos,

Then how would you refer to the people of Latin America? That you refer to a "Latino community" gives away your tacit agreement with me that latin people can be grouped easily when compared to Anglos, African-decents, Asian etc.

Your reasoning is deeply flawed. If you were to have your way we wouldn't be able to group peoples together (a common human approach in understanding is grouping/dividing/labelling) in a meaningful way.

Your thinking would say no-one can be classified in a all-encompassing way. We couldn't call Arabs as Arabic people, or East Asians for who they are. We'd have to say that each country has its own culture. Such idocy would lead to this not being acceptable to everyone, as in Peru, as you know, there are many cultures. People wouldn't like being told they are of a "Peruvian Culture". They will prefer to be referred to by a regional or ethnic one.

Then where does this lead? In the region or in the ethnicity there are again people who act, speak, believe differently. Perhaps we should recognise their small groups culture as being seperate. Then what about individual people, who each have their own independent culture. We can even divide that down to a single person over time.

I'm sorry Carlos, but your world and view is one that runs contrary to human nature and human culture (though you'll declare that doesn't exist, even if martians showed up). Humans ability to label and group allows us to study and learn - and is the foundation of everything we have built in our civilization. I'm sure these words have no effect on you, extremist minds are stubborn that way.

# LD says :
1 February, 2008 [ 20:53 ]

     Maybe I can clarify some things. Cultures are consistent through biotopes, geographical area’s that are uniform in environment and distribution of animals and plants. Therefore current country and mass geographical name groupings that encapsulate multiple biotopes would be inconsistent with that fact and therefore should be disregarded.

     Now on to culture similarities and relations, if you factor in the above mentioned, people recognize first that people that come from the same linguistic family as related to them. As in case the Navajo and the Hopi . The Navajo speak a form of Da-Nene that is the language spoken by the native of Alaska and northwestern Canada. The Hopi speak a form of Uto-Aztec spoken by many of the tribes of the southwestern US and Mexico. Each share the same biotope and similar cultures but do not consider themselves to be related. Where as the Hopi do identify with other Uto-Aztec speakers in the area like the Paiute or O’Odaham or with the Navajo the Apache to be related to them. The linguistic family is the first sub-grouping of the biotope or a specific culture. The next sub-grouping is usually based on dialectic forms of the main linguistic family such as the Lakota, Nakota and Dakota all of the same culture Teton but considered different by the people themselves for no other reason then variations in the same language. From there on down groupings are based on heredity.

     The specific name and its meaning and significance is based historical y on the common mythology of a culture drawing upon a person place or thing in there shared past or in a high percentage of the times the names are some variation of the word " people" in there language. Seeing how Spanish French or English are not the indigenous language nor apart of the mythology of a people any cultural names based upon them would be contrary to every other culture on the planet.

     I must apologies for all the northen references but I’m more familiar with this area plus these facts are universally applicable to both the Northern or Southern Continent and the World.

# Bluue says :
2 February, 2008 [ 14:00 ]

LP and Anonymous Dave are both right in their own ways.

LP, no one is denying the more detailed and accurate categorisations you speak of. We do have these levels of categorisation everywhere where there are distinct groups. This fine detail of categorisation is necessary and important to have to understand the different groups.

I think perhaps a distinction needs to be made in terms of 1) whether we are looking at mainstream culture or indigenous 2) who is the audience

In 1) as has been discussed, the majority of the population in these countries, those of mixed ancestry, have more in common with each other as LD correctly points out, than the very distinctive indigenous communities. If that is the case, we cannot apply those distinctive indigenous categories to the mainstream as they themselves do not identify with those cultures. However, when we are referring to the indigenous communities, "latino" or "hispanic" would not apply to them.

In 2) Who is your audience, if you are talking with someone from Europe or India in reference to Latin America, they will probably not have the frame of reference to know what all those detailed subgroups mean. They would more likely be familiar with the dominant mainstream cultures. In that case, for simplicities sake, we use a broader term that categorises in a general way for understanding.

From a non-Latino person's perspective, similarities amongst countries in Latin America:
1) Spanish as official language
2) Similar history - indigenous cultures were there first, Spanish came to colonise, large mixed ancestry populations
3) Catholic majority
4) Shared mainstream culture - popular music, TV, popular culture
5) Similar colonial structure of cities - Whether you are in Mexico City or Cusco, you've got the Plaza of Armas with the cathedral, etc.,
6) Similar shared values such as family unity, etc.,
(Note that these are broad generalisations as they are meant to be, from the perspective of a tourist or someone who would not have a very detailed understanding of the differences between each country)

Indigenous populations do not fit neatly within political borders, so when you refer to Peru or Ecuador, it doesn't necessarily even work for those groups. I would say looking at mainstream vs. indigenous cultures are comparing apples to oranges.

# Bluue says :
2 February, 2008 [ 14:19 ]

Magdalena,

I have to question where is the factual basis for your opinion that Peru does a better job than other South American countries of acknowleging its indigenous legacy and African contribution? It is certainly not something that stands out to me, that Peru does a better job than countries like Chile, Ecuador or Bolivia.

As for pride in African contribution, sure everyone loves criollo music, but how do they treat people of African ancestry in Peru? I was watching the news once, and a football delegation from Africa was visiting Peru. The reporter got one of the players to say "I am from Chicha" and "My family is from Chicha", and laughed at the expense of the player. That was pretty appalling (this is a news reporter), not to mention the low-brow comedy shows that still use black caricature masks and painted bodies, to act like gorillas as a comedy piece. A LOT of work needs to be done to develop intercultural awareness and respect.

# Anonymous Dave says :
2 February, 2008 [ 16:34 ]

Bluue... well stated. Nice to have someone who can think clearly and without bias or extremism. Anyone with a clear and honest mind will find it impossible to argue with what you have said, without trying to distort your words or plain lie.

# Magdalena says :
2 February, 2008 [ 19:01 ]

OK!....all of you guys have valid arguments, Dave, Carlos, LP.....and perhaps Bluue had the most well-founded case.

But I still don't like to be labeled "hispanic" or "latina".....because I have a strong Peruvian identity and I think Peru's history is unlike any other.

Here is a toast to Ambassado Kauffman Doig for seeing that our precious textiles return home!!

# LD says :
2 February, 2008 [ 22:11 ]

Bluue

      I’m glad you brought up migration. Due to the advent of mass transportation the migration of the peoples of the world has reached a level never before seen in human history. When do a people that have newly arrived in area become apart of the local culture? As we have observed transplanted cultures usually tend to hold on to there traditions like Little China and Little Italy. Irrelevant to fact that there mythologies therefore there cultural anchors are no longer a part of there daily lives. Some cultures create synergies of the original mythologies and the transplanted mythologies like the hybrid forms of Catholicism in South America and North America by the assimilated indigenous cultures. Despite this the cultures that chose to honor there traditions should be given first rights to this decision of the names of there homelands and of themselves. Those that have a right to live on the land have a right to govern the land.

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