Living in Peru : your everyday companion

Peru: Photo of the day - South America's countries came from Peru

http://filer.livinginperu.com/news/img/garcia_laptop.jpg900642

© ANDINA

Living in Peru
Israel J. Ruiz

Peru's President Alan Garcia affirmed on Thursday that the Andean country was progressing rapidly because it had a mission and was following a national development plan. The country's head of state made these statements as he led a ceremony in which children in the northern region of San Martin received their own laptops.

"South America's motherland isn't Spain, it's Peru. All the countries came from here. This is where the Inca Empire was and where the only viceroyalty was located," affirmed Garcia. "We are South America's biggest, and if we were before, when can be (the biggest) once again, that is the government's objective and that is what we are going to accomplish for Peru's children."

 | |

• Sports : Riots follow after soccer match in Peru
• Health : Peru commemorates World AIDS Day with information campaign
• TV/Entertainment : Iron Maiden to perform in Lima March 2009
• TV/Entertainment : Enrique Iglesias performs to screaming fans in Lima
• Lima : Peru, Chile companies to launch $160 million project in Lima beach

# GG says :
24 May, 2008 [ 04:17 ]

Yeah the BIGGEST cesspool of Pollution in South America. I guess it's ok if people in Peru all get cancer as long as big business makes a quick buck.

# Rene says :
26 May, 2008 [ 09:10 ]

Alan should review his history lessons to avoid such nationalistic speeches that make no sense. First of all, Brasil has never been part of the viceroyalty of Peru since it was Portuguese. And as far as I know Brasil covers a large part of SA. Second, the viceroyalty of Peru was the first, but later the Spanish split it up into two before any SA nations were created. So saying that Peru was the only viceroyalty is simply incorrect. Third, many SA countries were already independent countries before Peru became independent. Does not say much for Peru either. And last, referring to the Inca empire is lame. That way the Italians can claim Europe based on the roman empire and the Germans can claim Europe based on their empire that lasted for 5 years.

This is the kind of populist talk that Alan should avoid, it puts him in the same categorie as Chavez..

# Pablo says :
29 October, 2008 [ 16:56 ]

Now, now, review your history lessons. Brazil was a not a part of the Viceroyalty of Perú, but 80% of Brazil's territory was. Sure, the viceroyalty was split but still the first one was in Perú wich gave birth to the others. Now Perú was the last country to gain its independence for two reasons, the spanish army was the strongest here and peruvians didn't want to be independet, it was good bussiness for us to stay a part of Spain at the time of independece, not so for the other countries. 

And lastly, the Romans can indeed claim to be the ones who gave birth to Europe, not only because of their empire but because of their culture, their civilization, the Western Civilization comes from Rome. Of course Greece is also very important, birth of Democracy amongst other things.

Surely Rene you are American, and Americans don't know history so your ignorance is forgiven.

# David N says :
29 October, 2008 [ 21:46 ]

Pablo,

In the United States we are taught very little South American history, instead we are educated with respect to first world nations.  Third world nations typically are of only minor consequence on the world stage, and understanding the history of South America is considered unimportant.

Just like the rantings of Garcia, the grinning buffoon, are similarily unimportant and irrelevant.  That said, even someone in the United States that couldn't care less about the topic could tell you Garcia claiming that Peru is the "motherland" of South America is a retarded statement.  At the height of it's power, the Inca empire didn't extend very far into the interior of South America, and never had a significant presence on the Atlantic coast.  It is your own president, Garcia the imbecile, that needs a history lesson. 

# Pablo says :
29 October, 2008 [ 22:41 ]

Again, you are forgiven for your ignorance. 

No wonder your country has gone to ****, with people of your quality as their inhabitants.

# Mike says :
30 October, 2008 [ 00:42 ]

While Peru was last to be liberated from Spain, keep in mind that nothing happened quickly back then.  Independence came to all of Spanish SA within about a 12 year period.

I think Garcia, in regards to the Inca, referred to them as opposed to other recent, great pre-colonial civilizations in SA.  He should probably have referred to Andean cultures in general (since there were a few that eventually merged into the Incan Empire), but, the Inca did bring about some, and improve existing, innovations.  The Inca Empire did expand quickly, is SA's largest known pre-colonial empire and civilization.

Garcia was pointing out that the Incan Empire and that the Viceroyalty of Peru were both centered where modern Peru is.

I would like to see the text of the speech (or to have heard it) to get a better understanding of what his point was.  By the text of this article, one might believe Garcia wants Peru to expand for a new empire....though I imagine he really means that Peru should lead the way politically, socially, and economically....

# Pablo says :
30 October, 2008 [ 01:31 ]

I think its obvious that he means Perú should improve socially, politically and economically. 

# jcwong says :
30 October, 2008 [ 07:25 ]

LOL

..."In the United States we are taught very little South American history, instead we are educated with respect to first world nations. Third world nations typically are of only minor consequence on the world stage, and understanding the history of South America is considered unimportant."...

HHHHHAAAAAAHHHAAAAAA!!!!!

this guy 's comments are a perfect reflection of G.W. Bush's fellow americans. I couldn't think of a better insult that to repost his comments.

Read Pablo and Mike's comments David N, they actually atttended high school. but don't despair you can always get a certificate, it's never too late.

jcw

# David N says :
30 October, 2008 [ 08:19 ]

Pablo, if I want to see hell, all I have to do is take a stroll and about half a mile from my house in Surco I'll find it.

# David N says :
30 October, 2008 [ 08:25 ]

Funny, jc, but my wife has relatives that talk just like you, but then get very quiet around the first of the month when they get their 'ayuda' in US dollars. 

Most attended not only high school but also college, yet require assistance from one of "G.W. Bush's fellow americans" to put food on the table and pay the electricity bill.

# Mike says :
30 October, 2008 [ 08:43 ]

You know, the only reason I know anything of SA history is because I read as an adult.  We did cover some of it in school (back in the 80s), because I took Spanish classes for 6 years.  Regular history courses concentrated on western civilization history, and did speak of SA once in awhile, but not much.  World history in high school covered, for the most part, the origins of civilization and the great civilizations of man.  US history was covered in depth (I'm in US, so why not?) - and histories of Canada and Mexico were also covered pretty well.

Since more is known about the pre-colonial civilizations now in SA, I know they talk about them a bit more than they did when I was in school.  The Incas and Spanish conquest of SA were briefly covered.  Latin America's social and political issues were covered a bit.

So, David N is correct, SA isn't covered too much (except if you were taking Spanish language class).  Frankly, why would it be covered much?  Because the historical string of dictators and corrupt governments are particularly important to know and memorize?  Because SA has, historically, an important role in the world?  I think not.  SA has just recently begun to emerge from its quagmire and become more important politcally and economically.  And I mean in the last 10 years or so.

Also, it seems pretty obvious to me that very few in Peru learn much about history/civilization in school - despite that being a significant origin of society in Peru (and SA).  When I talk politics and societies with people at parties, I'm always confronted with "Oh, really, I never knew that.  No, it was never talked about in school."  And usually, these parties consist of my wife's friends and family.  Very educated people - Masters and PhDs mostly (my wife has her Masters in Climatology).  They went to private schools, and supposedly got the best education available in Peru, but don't know a thing about history outside of Peru and SA.

To be fair, there is plenty of that in the US as well, but not amongst people who are educated.  The worst answer you can expect is "Yeah, I remember that being mentioned, but I'm fuzzy on remembering the details."  Not complete ignorance.

Peru has a long way to go before it can preach to anyone about education.

# Devilmaycare says :
30 October, 2008 [ 08:46 ]

I think what President Garcia was trying to say is that Peru was once a great nation ("We are South America's biggest, and if we were before, when can be (the biggest) once again") and can be again.

I also think that whoever translated the quote from Spanish to English did a poor job of it.

Peru has the potential to become much more than it is, and far more than it ever was as a country. Yes Peru should improve socially, politically and economically but the goverment needs to crack down harder on corruption. Peru is giving away its resources due to the lopsided contracts agreed upon by officials who I believe got hefty payoffs from those companies. 

The other thing is that if you want your country to grow and prosper, you can't forget a large portion of your people. I find it a bit strange that a country that advertises its history as being of Andean culture and has a site that has been named A Wonder of The World (MP) refers to its decendants as cholo's. I know that sometimes this is an affectionate term but for the most part it is not. We in the U.S. are just as guilty of that kind of prejudice. We have (in the past) killed off most of the indian nation and took their land.

Here is something that should add something to this story of SA history. Long before the Incas (12,000 years ago) Archeologists believe that North American Indians migrated to Peru and other SA countries. If this is true then maybe the U.S. and Canada are the Motherlands of modern day South America. Could be that we share some of the same ancestors. Being part Indian I would like to take this time to say Howdy Cousins! To all my family in Peru.

I am in no way putting down Peru so please don't get defensive. As a matter of fact I think Peru is great but like all nations it can be better. I have seen something in the people of Peru that reminds me of the best things I have seen in the people of the U.S. Forget about the goverment for a moment. On the people level I have seen great acts of kindness and I was very impressed at the way you guys care about each other for the most part.
 
Now if the people you have running the goverment could learn from the people living on the street level then Peru will, without a doubt, be one of the greatest nations of the world.     

# Devilmaycare says :
30 October, 2008 [ 09:15 ]

Jcw, David N is right they do not teach anthing about Peru in the schools. He was stating a fact nothing more. 

David N, if it bothers you to help your family in Peru then stop but don't put them down for needing help. If I were in the sitituation alot of poeple in Peru are in, (no jobs, no chance of getting a job and no other hope) I would do whatever it takes to feed my family. Starting by asking for help from my family and friends. I might even cross a border or two to find work because I love my family and if the choice is seeing them die of starvation or me risking a border crossing then I would pick crossing that border each and every time.    

# Mike says :
30 October, 2008 [ 09:19 ]

I think what David N was saying is that his wife's family can be mildly insulting to his home country until they get the money from that country.

Seems to be a pattern of that in the world.

Frankly, criticism of US and it's policies is good - I think that is healthy.  Talking out of ignorance or just to be judgmental is never welcome.

# Devilmaycare says :
30 October, 2008 [ 09:41 ]

Mike, I couldn't agree more. It keeps some of them honest.
"Frankly, criticism of US and it's policies is good - I think that is healthy."

David N, I do understand that if all you hear is critism from your wife's family about the U.S. it does make it hard for you to want to help. It is a don't bite the hand that feeds you sort of thing. I went through with my wife too. One day I sat her down and explained to her that I am very proud of my country. I told her that I know it is not perfect but the U.S. has helped alot of other countries around the world. Even the ones that hate us. Maybe you should do the same with your wife's family and they might stop the critism and learn from you. At the very least they won't talk like that around you. Not because they are afraid the you will cut them off and they won't eat but because they know it offends you and they won't want to disrespect you.  

# Von says :
30 October, 2008 [ 12:16 ]

I have been reading this debate between all of you, and am finding it very interesting. The different views that come from different points of reasoning.

I would like to throw a curve ball, asking for friendly advise from both sides of the continental border.
This is completely off subject, so if I get no response I will understand.

I am from the US. I have been fascinated with Peru since I was in my teen's. I love the sense of family and the culture, the ancient ruins and societies, etc... I have always wanted to visit there.

My fiance is from Peru. She lived here in the US for two years. She went home this year to be with her family until I arrive in January to meet her parents and ask for her hand in Marriage with the thought that she would return to the US with me as my wife.

Now we have learned that because of "complications" with her origional Visa to the US, she is not allowed to return here for several years.
She has asked me to move to Lima to start our life there together.

My question is this...
How do Peruvians truely feel towards Americans?
I would be moving there to become a dual citizen of both countries.

She tells me that Peruvians are loving people, which I believe because I have met several who are all wonderful people, But, in your country what should I expect?
I recently went back to college and wrote most of my papers on Peru because we were together, but I did not see any problems between US and Peru on a personal level. I saw dirty deals between gov't and contractors for mining and destroying (which I hated), but nothing between the people.

I am researching the crime problems there, but it sounds more like the people against the Government.

What can I expect?
How bad is the political and economical and social status in your Beautiful country?

I would be happy to hear any comments and advice.
Thanks to all from both of our countries.

# jcwong says :
30 October, 2008 [ 12:34 ]

David N

Is this what you learn in night school? or by watching cnn,

that the usa is a great nation full of citizens that give the world assistance? what kind of assistance are you exactly taking about?

Im sure the millions of vietnamese and iraquis your great nation has assisted will remember you kindly in their history books.

Im sure you didnt mean the kind of assistance that china and other nations have provided the usa by buying worthless t bills that support that famous 1st world lifestyle you're accustomed to.

thank you mike for that wonderful and logical analysis about the value of education: the usa education system does not teach much about south american history all 5000 years of it therefore its not worth talking about.
by the way there's not wrong with reading as an adult but i think the point being made was what subjects YOU'RE TAUGHT while in high school if any. the concept being that as children you attend in a daily basis some type of institution in order to learn about the world, besides the usual math and physics stuff.

Like I mention before, all I have to do is quote your comments.

# Mike says :
30 October, 2008 [ 13:08 ]

thank you mike for that wonderful and logical analysis about the value of education: the usa education system does not teach much about south american history all 5000 years of it therefore its not worth talking about.

Though your remark is meant as sarcastic, it is true.  It is only worth touching on briefly, nothing more. 

The reality is that time is limited in schools, and the most important stuff needs to be taught primarily.  If students want to learn more, they can take appropriate classes in college or read on their own.  Every school has a library in the US.

jcwong, you, like a few people on this board, just feel you need to be judgmental about every step the US takes.  Perhaps if you bothered to pay attention to your own country's issues, things would be better in Peru.

As for the assistance, the US government gives billions of dollars to countries around the world every year to help them develop.  Then there is the charity that US citizens give.  In both cases, the largest of any country in the world.  As an amount and as a percentage of income or gdp.

# Mike says :
30 October, 2008 [ 13:24 ]

Von;

I took your question to a forum:

http://forum.livinginperu.com/index.php?showtopic=2761

# Devilmaycare says :
30 October, 2008 [ 13:44 ]

jcwong says :Like I mention before, all I have to do is quote your comments.

"that the usa is a great nation full of citizens that give the world assistance? what kind of assistance are you exactly taking about?"

The above was a reference to my comment not David N's and yes the U.S. contributes Billions of dollars around the world. The goverment gives about 20 Billion dollars a year and privately the Citizens of the U.S. give more than 60 Billion dollars a year. I am not talking about the B.S. 800 Billion dollars that you hear on TV from Obama and McCain because that is mostly going to pay for oil. I am talking about money that is going to help feed, build housing and treat illnesses of poeple in need.

As I said above "I know it is not perfect but the U.S. has helped alot of other countries around the world. Even the ones that hate us." I am very proud of my country and if you don't like then maybe you should try to learn more about it because as you said: "by the way there's not wrong with reading as an adult" and "the concept being that as children you attend in a daily basis some type of institution in order to learn about the world" This works both ways "all I have to do is quote your comments." as well.

On a funny note, I do find it ironic that someone called JC is focusing on the negitive things and someone called Devil is focusing on the things positive. It just struck me as funny.  

Von, I may not be the best person to answer your question about Peru because I have only been to Peru Three times. With that being said I have found that most people are warm, friendly, respectful and proud. The economy is weak so unless you have something to offer to the people such as a trade they can use (then you will find work) then you will need to be self supportive. I myself have thought about Peru as a place of retirement when I am able. My suggestion is that if you can, go and spend a month in Peru and see for yourself. My opinion is Peru is great so far. I know that is not an answer to your question but it's the best I can do for you.   

# David N says :
30 October, 2008 [ 13:53 ]

Von,

If your fiancee was in the US for a couple of years, went back to Peru and now cannot return, it would indicate she was in the US on a tourist visa and overstayed.  In other words, she was 'illegal' in the US.

Peru is an interesting country to visit, you should by all means visit there.  Living there?  Well, my recommendation is visit first before you walk into something you've been hyped into.  I don't know what experience you have with third world countries, but Peru is a very different country that back home. 

My question for you is where in Peru your fiancee and you will reside, and what type of gainful employment do you expect to find there to support yourselves?  If you're headed to Lima, certain municipalities are OK, others resemble Calcutta after a flood.  What district does she reside in?

Also, you should check with US immigration authorities.  If you go ahead and marry your fiancee, all past problems with her visa and immigration status become forgiven, and she can walk right back into the United States like she owns the place.

A word of caution -- Peruanas make wonderful wives, but they love their families.  You have to make sure you still steer the ship when it comes to your life, and dont' give up even an inch of ground.  They will be more than happy to make your decisions for you if you permit it.

# Olinda says :
30 October, 2008 [ 13:59 ]

There goes insecure David N.....being negative and critical about Peru again!  People, check out other threads and you'll see that this individual never misses the opportunity to put my country down.

Any man who regularly cries and complains about being "dragged" to Peru by his wife and how his wife's family is extorting him needs counseling.  He has some deep-rooted issues that will only come to surface through psychoanalysis and cognitive therapy.  He is a habitual complainer and constantly whines about how horrible things are in Peru.  I have suggested that he stay in sunny Fort Lauderdale when his wife wants to "drag" him to Peru. This man is NOT sincere about wanting to see Peru progress.  He is a cynic and an arrogant man.....the kind that usually has no education, the kind who gets his little ego inflated by putting other people down.  David N.....you have no credibility.

There are other people on this forum who are intolerant and vindictive.  They can't stand to admit that they are mostly fascinated by Peru and all the wonderful things it has to offer.....so they have to tear it down.  If they weren't fascinated by my country.....why would they be posting on LIP???  If they didn't think that Peru is noteworthy they wouldn't even know about "Living in Peru". 

I don't have the time to write about education in Peru vs. education in the US.  My husband is a respected educator with a street named after him in our town. We've been visiting Peru every year for the last 43 years. My husband always makes it a point to visit two or three schools in Lima every year.  He has visited the range of schools: from Guadalupe, to Pestalozzi, from Colegio Nacional Miguel Grau to Markham College, from GUE Fanning to Maria Alvarado. He is always impressed by the academic  and seriousness of the students.

We have a more classical education in Peru and a high school graduate there has the equivalent of two years of college in the US.  To further illustrate this point: My parents sent me to a private school in California, mainly because they wanted me to perfect my English.  My teachers in Peru adviced against it, telling my father I wouldn't learn anything in the US in high school, that it would be a waste of time.  My dad insisted that he wanted me to be fluent in English.  After four years of high school in California I returned to Peru aspiring to enter the Diplomatic Academy of Peru (state department school or Ministry of Foreign Relations school....for those of you who don't understand the word "diplomatic").  I was told I needed at least two years of university before applying to the academy.  So I proceeded to look into a couple of universities and to my dismay I found out that I did not qualifiy to enter because my US education was deficient.  When I told my dad that, he told me not to worry, that he would talk to his friend, the Minister of Education, who at the time I believe was General Mendoza (this was during the 1960's).  My dad was confident that his friend, the Minister, would see to it that I got into the university of my choice.  I was 18 and I remember walking with my dad into the minister's office....indeed they were old friends.  However, when the minister looked at my transcripts....he frowned the whole time.  Then, looking at my nervous dad....he said: "My friend...I'm sorry to tell you that there is no way your daughter can postulate for any university here. The fact is that she doesn't have enough of a solid foundation to go to the university.  My dad said: "but she's a very intelligent girl....I'm convinced she'll have no problem coping with her studies....all she needs is a chance to apply".  The minister's face turned from friendly to frustrated....he got up as if to show us out the door and said: "Guillermo, my friend....I would not put your daughter through that torture and humiliation....she will not be able to keep up with the rest of her class and she will be eliminated.  It's a real shame you didn't take all these things into consideration before you decided she needed to be educated in the States.  I would be more specific, but I don't want to hurt her feelings...so let's leave it at that".  My dad was so demoralized when we left the minister's office that he had to keep from crying. He knew how I had dreamed about entering Peru's foreign service.....and now he knew I couldn't.  Yes, I had perfected my English....but nothing else!  Basically, I didn't have to go to California to perfect my English....I was attending one of the best schools in Lima where all subjects were taught in English, with the exception of Peruvian History.  Furthermore, I had been tutored at home in English since age 5 so I could enter this prestigious school.....which had been prestigious since 1906.....not only in Peru, but in all Latin America.

As fate would have it.....my dream of being in international circles came true anyway, when my husband was assigned on an important mission to the U.S. Embassy in Paris for several years.  Interestingly enough,  my husband was told that one of the factors in his selection for that important post at the embassy, was that I also spoke several languages, which I had learnt at l'Alliance Francaise, the Goethe Institute and through private tutoring in Russian. 

This is so that you know that there are plenty of people like me in Peru who had a classical education, starting in the first grade.  We're not a bunch of dummies....as some dummies would like to make you think.  Even the most humble of service people in Peru are more articulate and know more history and geography than the average person in the US.  My husband is a Ph.D and he has been amazed since we got married, over 40 years ago, at how much I know about any given subject.  Once in a blue moon, he even asks me how to spell something in English....claiming he had a "senior moment".  The truth is that I am a better speller than he is....in any of the languages we speak....including Russian.

It's a real pity that schools in the US don't teach more about South America....and it shows.  I've had some pretty dumb questions asked of me throughout the years.
Examples: "you people speak Portuguese down there in Peru?"........."I thought Lima was in the high Andes....isn't it close to Machu-Picchu?"    "What are those goats you have up there where you come from?"
"Do people still shrink heads in Peru?"   "I know all about them indians in your country....the Aztecs".  OH....MY....GOSH!!  Need I go any further??

Yes Alan....we are the Mother of America.  We've been around for a lonnng time.  My own Spanish ancestors were still running around in pelts when the ancient Peruvians were creating civilizations.  "Bandurria" is the oldest city in the Americas....6,000 years old!  Some of you guys can't even fathom a civilization that old.

So......Alan Garcia, you're not perfect....you made plenty of mistakes in the past, but I like what you're doing now. You're restoring dignity to the people....you're giving our little kids a chance in their future.  You cynics in this forum....take another look at the picture above and notice the children's faces of joy and amazement.  Look at President Garcia's tender, committed look at these little Peruvians of the future.  Watch out world!

David N....how dare you call our president a "grinning buffoon". I think you were thinking about your own # 1"grinning buffoon" George W. Bush!  It's easy for you to call people names...when you can hide your identity and your lack of education and cultivation on this forum.  You can only "pretend"....but the people who count have already figured you out.  People like JC Wong and Pablo......and I was about to include "Devilmaycare" but he's talked out of both sides of his mouth....here and in another forum.  I thought he was our "paisano"...as he would aspire....but tsk, tsk, tsk...NO.

So.....you negative, cynical, know-it-all "experts" on Peru....you don't have a leg to stand on.  No matter what you say, thank God Pablo, JC Wong and myself have been infused with a mega dosis of high-esteem through our love for our flag and Peru.  If you don't believe me....check out our fervor for our great country during a three-day celebration national independence day.  But it's not just during independence day, folks.  My husband and I once walked into the Moronococha school in Iquitos.....unannounced.....and saw and heard a little girl in the courtyard who was reciting a long poem entitled "Mi Banderita Peruana" to the whole student body.  Both my husband and I got choked up.  No doubt "Capitan Dan" can vouch for my statement, since I believe he lives, at least part time, in Iquitos.  But the same love and passion for Peru can be found in the most remote corner of that great country of mine.  THAT, my friends, is why Peruvians have such good self-esteem and are such positive, hospitable people.  We feel good about ourselves and Peru.....no matter what.  Now that Peru is on its way up to be "The Jewel of South America", as Capitan Dan says....how do you cynics think we feel??
EMPOWERED!!...

# David N says :
30 October, 2008 [ 14:07 ]

Devilmaycare,

Even though they may be hypocritical and a pain in the neck, my wife's family are still good decent people and they will always get whatever they need.

# David N says :
30 October, 2008 [ 14:12 ]

'I think what David N was saying is that his wife's family can be mildly insulting to his home country until they get the money from that country.'

Yes, thank you Mike. 

# David N says :
30 October, 2008 [ 14:26 ]

Olinda,

Ah yes, there you go getting defensive again.  Why are you so defensive about the facts?

I can tell you this--a master's degree from a Peruvian university usually isn't worth the paper it's printed on, unless the graduate has friends and family in high places.  I've met many a Peruvian taxi driver with a university degree on the streets of Lima.

There is no reason to learn the history of South America, read Mike's post.  As for knowledge of history, most Peruvians couldn't tell you what each national holiday represents, all they know is it's a day off to get drunk and smack the kids around.

# Olinda says :
30 October, 2008 [ 14:45 ]

Yeah, Mike....."the US gives government gives billions of dollars (in propaganda) to countries around the world every year to help them develop."  As we say in Spanish: "No es el amor al chancho.....sino a los chicharrones"....roughly translated, it means: "it's not so much that you love the pig.....as much as the "bacon" that will come from it".    

Yeah Mike....the US has also squandered trillions of dollars in Iraq through a stupid "shock and awe" invasion and the stupider "surge". That's why it's now bankrupt!  The US always has a "secret agenda" and in the case of Iraq...we had to blitz the "infidels".....they needed to have democracy jammed down their throats.  The REAL truth of the matter is that this country wants to overpower and rule the world by sticking its nose where it doesn't belong.  We have no business blitzing Iraq and trampling over this "cradle of civilization"...under the alibi that it's for it's own good.  Please go see the film "W".

I love this country, mainly because my husband was born here.  I've lived here off and on for over 50 years....so Peru detractors...don't make me tell the truth about this place, which happens when one of you cynics want to belittle my country of birth...Peru.  It's that "...'merican" arrogance and imperiousness that makes me livid.

Go ahead and shoot..........bullets will just bounce off of me, Pablo and JC Wong. In Peru and Alan we trust!

# Devilmaycare says :
30 October, 2008 [ 14:46 ]

David N, Glad to hear that! You also gave Von good advice on going to Peru first it's a big move in ones life. I was also glad that you told him about immigration forgiving his future wife I am sure he will find comfort in that.

Olinda, I am not on this site to please you or anyone else. I call them as I see them. JC was doing exactly what you don't like about David N, how did you put that "negative and critical" about the U.S. I have defended Peru what makes you think that I would not do the same for my country?

Because I can defend both countries does not in any way shape or form mean I am (again as you put it) talking out of both sides of my mouth. I can see both sides of a problem and I state my point of view you can disagree with it if you like but name calling is only a way of showing that your education is not all you say it is. maybe you should state what it is you think I said that has brought you down to the level of name calling and we can discuss it here in the forum or are you angry because I am not 100% in agreement with all of your points of view. If that is your reasoning then may I direct you to my screen name and ask you to look up the meaning. 

   

# Mike says :
30 October, 2008 [ 14:59 ]

Olinda;

Your ignorance is astounding.

# Olinda says :
30 October, 2008 [ 15:05 ]

David N:  thanks for giving us a little more insight into the Peruvian family you married into and the kind of neighborhood you all live in Surquillo (see "Peru is best for 68% of Peruvians...).  

                                            "all they know is, it's a day off to get drunk and smack the kids around".

Now we understand much better where you're coming from. It's all relative, my friend.  "Dime con quien andas, y te dire quien eres"  (you are judged by the company you keep).  I think it all should stop right here David N....stop insulting Peru and Peruvians and help restore decency and civility to this great forum.  There are Critics....and there are "critics".....you're in this last category.  Discipline yourself to be decent, respectful and tolerant of your wife's people.  If she knew all the negative, derogatory things you're telling the world about how her family conducts itself on holidays.....she would be pretty upset. Honor your wife by behaving yourself....stop being condescending telling all of us here that if you didn't subsidize them, there wouldn't be food on the table.  Thank God my husband has never had to send a penny to my relatives in all these years.....on the contrary, we started out with a nice piece of change (my "dowry") as a gift from my father.  I am so proud of him for the deep love he has for Peru....eventhough he knows its not a perfect country.  By the way....my husband agrees with my opinion about the squandering of money in Iraq....he knows, he's also a US Marine!

# Mike says :
30 October, 2008 [ 15:11 ]

Whatever, crazy person.

# mericorps says :
30 October, 2008 [ 15:29 ]

Olinda,

I really seldom agree with David N, but once again, your one sided approach and chidish responses really casts you in a bad light when you are trying to be a spokesperson for Peru.  Good luck with that.

# Devilmaycare says :
30 October, 2008 [ 15:39 ]

Olinda,

These are from only two of your posts here on this subject.

"how his wife's family is extorting him" (In what post dose he say this or is this only a lie you made up to attack him?)

"He has some deep-rooted issues that will only come to surface through psychoanalysis and cognitive therapy." (Another attack)

"He is a habitual complainer and constantly whines about how horrible things are in Peru." (still another attack)

"He is a cynic and an arrogant man.....the kind that usually has no education, the kind who gets his little ego inflated by putting other people down.  David N.....you have no credibility." (yet another personel attack)

I guess you were right when you said "It's easy for you to call people names...when you can hide your identity and your lack of education" 

David and others (as well as myself) express their points of view and you make personal attacks. Why can't you just state your opposing point of view. For a person of your education one would figure this would be easy. 

Should I go on and talk about how you only love the U.S. because your husband was born there. (I wonder if he knows how you really feel about the country of his birth) Or would you like to go scroll up and read your words for yourself.

sorry to post this twice but i just can't read the fine print

# Devilmaycare says :
30 October, 2008 [ 16:01 ]

This should give you some insight as to who I am and just how proud I am of my Country. I wrote this on the one year anniversary of 911


Never Forget  They thought we were a Nation divided by an election to close to call.They believed we were so separated by political parties that we couldn’t act.They figured that when the time came for our test as a people we would fail.They committed one of the most horrific acts of terrorism our country has ever known and assumed we would crumble when our buildings did. On September 11, 2001 they found out just how wrong they were.  Our nation will never bow down before another under any threat. What was done to strike us down only made us stronger as a nation. What they thought would tear apart an already politically polarized nation only proved to the world that we are united and we may squabble amongst ourselves but we all stand together as one against any intruder.  Our society allows us to have different beliefs and to voice our opinion. This might be confusing to some others who see this as a sign of weakness. Let me make it clear for them. Americans may differ in the way we achieve our goals but our goal is always to protect our way of life and we are damn good at it.   The United States of America may be a young country but we have a very long memory and we will never forget.                                                                 An American

# Devilmaycare says :
30 October, 2008 [ 16:08 ]

This is one of the reasons why on another subject Mericorps and I had a disagreement (The election) and it got intense but it didn't come down to name calling. This is also why I can see David N's points and we can disagree and we don't get down to the level of name calling.

Oh! before I forget Thank you LIP for removing the double post.

# Olinda says :
30 October, 2008 [ 16:08 ]

Devilmaycare.....which came before?....the chicken or the egg?  This, in response to your defense of your paisano, David N. 

My dear Peru detractors.....I don't much have time for this nonsense....we have a social engagement in 30 minutes!  While I'm away.....take stock, reflect, meditate, change your paradigms, read some Peruvian history, brush up on your Spanish, do something nice for somebody, read a book of self-esteem....go for whatever productive endeavor will make you a better person so you can make this a better world, instead of complaining about how backwards Peru is and how David N needs airsickness bags when he goes to Peru.....if you don't believe me....go read the mile-long discussion on "Peru, best place to live for 68%....   Devilmaycare, you may need a "lupa" for this, that is....a magnifying glass....but everything I've quoted him on.....it's there!  Well, one good thing that came out of all this negativity from Peru detractors on this forum would have to be that you and David N are now best buddies!.....that's positive! 

I love you all!....I don't like the nonsense you write.....but I still love you!  not personally, but with Universal Love.  Viva el Peru!  Vivan los Estados Unidos!

# Devilnaycare says :
30 October, 2008 [ 16:30 ]

To answer your question, it depends on what you believe. 

The scientific answer would be the Egg that evolved over time into a chicken.

The answer the church will tell you is that the chicken came first when God created all the animals.

I believe you are against anyone who don't agree with every point of you give so in the future I will treat your posts as fiction. They may sound real enough but much like the writer they as not what they appear to be.
 
The only post of David N I would like you to point out is the one that says how his wife's family is extorting him because I simply don't believe the fiction.    

# Pablo says :
30 October, 2008 [ 17:25 ]

The fact that "South American" history is not important is the absolute proof that the US doesn't teach history. Latin America and South America in particular were important because, the Spanish took all the gold, millions and millions of pounds of gold from our lands and with that money they became a super-power, they formed the Spanish Empire. Now why is the Spanish Empire important? well because, England and France financed their industry with Spanish gold and siver. 

The decline of Spain's power is a very very long matter to discuss but, its enough to mention that England fought many wars and consolidated its navy as the most important of the world because of this, because of the influx of gold and silver, Spain had become inefficient in all matters when compared to the other european powers, to counter this they enacted the Bourbon Reforms in the 18th century, spliting the Viceroyalty of Perú into three administrative regions, (Nueva Granada and Rio de la Plata). This reforms failed and in the early 19th century the Spanish America was free, Spain reduced to a minor power and England was now the only Super-Power in the world.

So, i guess they teach this in the US right?

# Devilmaycare says :
30 October, 2008 [ 17:35 ]

No sorry, they don't but it is very intresting. Thanks for the history lesson. Now can someone from Peru tell me the reason for the Civil War in the U.S.?

# Pablo says :
30 October, 2008 [ 17:48 ]

Sure, because the south wanted to expand slavery and the north didn't. Although its also though that the south defended the "states' rights", the famous "Lost Couse"

Economically, the slavery argument can be seeing as a distraction. The north wanted workers for their industries, and the way the south was developing economically was not favourable for the north. 

# Devilmaycare says :
30 October, 2008 [ 18:23 ]

Very good, States Rights is the reason. Slavery came after. Did you learn that in school in Peru or did you learn that after on your own? You would be suprised how many Americans don't know the reason.
 
If you learned that in school then Peru is far ahead of the U.S. in world history.

If you learned that afterwards on your own then I would say that both school systems are lacking.

# David N says :
30 October, 2008 [ 18:23 ]

Olinda,

Where did I say my home in Peru was in Surquillo?  It's in Chacarilla, which is part of Santiago de Surco.  Sheesh, don't you even know the geography of Lima?

As for your comments about George Bush, the only relevance he has to this thread is that Garcia might be the only leader in the western hemisphere with lower popularity.  I have no idea why you find the need to defend Garcia, the man is clueless and incompetent and a propaganda parrot. 

The rest of your post is just the same old drivel.  David N is insecure, David N has no credibility, blah, blah, blah.  Yeah, OK, I got all that already.

  

# Rene says :
30 October, 2008 [ 18:31 ]

Pablo and others,

I would love to have a discussion based on facts, as you started off. But then you close with "Surely Rene you are American, and Americans don't know history so your ignorance is forgiven.". This just sparked the whole personal pro and anti peru discussion that followed.

And I think that remark speaks for itself about your attitude towards non-peruvians and your constant bashing. The fact is that I'm surely not American. I'm Dutch and we are pretty well educated about many aspects of this world. Do we learn about Peru? No. For the Dutch that lovely country is not significant enough in our history to understand how the current world works and influences our economy. I suppose it is the same for the Americans, as many Americans think that The Netherlands (or Holland for many) is the capital of Denmark (or something similar). But do many Peruvians learn about The Netherlands? No. Most will just know that Amsterdam is the capital (at least most street children in Cusco seem to know that) and that we had a great football team in the seventies. That does not make Peruvians ignorant, nor does that make Americans ignorant. For most Peruvians the world is limited to Spanish-speaking South America, Spain and the USA, for most Americans the world is limited to..., well, the USA (and some soeveriegn states north and south of the border, right?). You just learn and know about what's important for your country in terms of economy and politics. Did anyone on this forum know that another South American country exists that never had been under the influence of the Spanish or the Portuguese or any pre-colombian Andean cultures? You ignorants... :-) In the North-Eastern corner of SA there is a country called Surinam that was colonized at first by the British and than traded with the Dutch for what is now Manhattan (talk about bad trading). We will not let Alan Garcia claim any rights for our prior colony... :-)

As far as Olinda is concerned, funny to see how some people need to first show off how smart they are before they let themselves go in useless and baseless criticism that people of any educational level can do. I guess that gives self confidence. Based on what she said I assume that she was educated in Peru more than 40 years ago and that she went to pretty fine schools. And based on that she defends all Peruvian schools of today. Well, based on my own observations, let me discuss what my feelings are towards more recent Peruvian education. My fiancee grew up in the capital of La Convencion, the area of last resort of the Inkas. She tells me that she was the best in her class regarding many subjects, but especially math. She made a bit of money for her family by tutoring her more affluent fellow students. But when I see her make simple calculations counting on her fingers and it takes her way much longer than me to come up with the answer, I seriously doubt the level of her class. This year I've lived 3.5 months in Cusco and have had the opportunity to view a school from the apartment. The time they spent on teaching marching and dancing for the parades, it's unbelievable. Instead I think they should spend more time educating these kids culture and basic values instead of so much nationalistic stuff (also the many Peruvians I've spoken to, including my fiancee, admit that many people lack culture and basic values, it's not just my opinion) that would really benefit them in life. Even in kindergarden the windows are full of Peruvian flags and "Viva Peru" banners instead of just neutral kids stuff. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong about being proud of your own country and heritage. But as an outsider I see this as nothing more than preparation of kids for a future in the Peruvian army (professional or drafted in time of crisis, it does not matter) instead of preparation for the difficult labour market in Peru. Sure, these are just short observations and do not reflect the whole of Peru, but it shows the other side of the gold medal presented by Olinda. Oh, and I can not wait to hear what all the bashers now have to say about the Dutch education...lol

Just to all people who so proudly wish to defend Peru, be a bit more substantial in your arguments to defend Peru rather than returning again and again to attacking US citizens as if they were all G. Bush. Especially the Peruvians that live in the US must know that the US people have various political opinions and should therefor not generalise (which the US citizins should not do about Peruvians either). And also US history is longer than the last 8 years. Sure, US politics is going after its own interests. Don't we all? What has Peru done for other countries that was not in their own interest (or at least in the interest of its politicians)? As a Dutchman I'm happy that in 1942 the US got involved in the 2nd world war. It was only after they were under attack themselves, but at least I'm not speaking German today. Just a little self-criticism from time-to-time, from both sides, would not hurt either. Know your history, know your culture and realise that not everything is as great as your politicians would like you to believe.

Cheers,
Rene

PS Oh and there is nothing wrong by pointing out that Peru is not the easiest of countries to migrate to in the case that someone is really wondering about future plans. I myself moved to the USA for my now fiancee, then considered Peru as a possible next stage as she could not stay longer in the USA and then ultimately moved down under. It was my Peruvian fiancee who did not want to live in Peru until possibly retirement. After 3 months in between living in Peru, I'm glad I did not decide to stay in Peru, since I can not stand the pollution in Lima (and that's where the money is) and I get very frustrated with the enormous informality all over Peru (and the buildings that are not constructed for people of 1.90 m (6'2'')). That does not mean that Peru is a bad country to live in, it's just that it does not suit everyone.

# Pablo says :
30 October, 2008 [ 18:35 ]

Ya, i learned on my own. Although peruvian history is what its mostly covered in peruvian schools. But we ARE a third-world country so any critisism should take into account that and also why is it that we are were we are. 

The thing about the US that many people don't like is that, you guys have all the money available to create a paradise, and yet there is a lot of crime, corruption, violance, abuse, poverty, etc. And then you go around invading other country's with lame excuses, you guys should just say that "we need to secure our oil supplies", or "we need to take control of that part of the world for security reasons", not "they have weapons of mass destruction" and then not finding them, that's all. 

Actually the US is a great country it just seems to have lost its way a bit in this last years. 

# David N says :
30 October, 2008 [ 18:46 ]

Pablo,

Yes we all know about the exploitation of South America by Spain, and how the native peoples were practically exterminated by the Spanish.  And how the Battle of Trafalgar was the beginning of the end of the Spanish empire.

However, back to the original statement by Garcia, it is ludicrous for him to claim that Peru is the "motherland of South America", simply because Spain put it's 'capital' at Lima.  Heck, folks in South America, if they don't speak Portuguese, speak Spanish.  Not Peruvian.  The Incan Empire might have been the largest on the continent, but it was by no means the only influence at the time.  His claim is like saying Pennsylvania is the motherland of North America.  Ridiculous.

Your overview of the US Civil War is what we would expect...a snapshot.  The underlying reasons went much further than just the simple issue of slavery.  Most northerners didn't want to free the slaves any more than southerners did.  If Lincoln had run on an abolitionist platform, he would never had been elected. 

# Ellen says :
30 October, 2008 [ 19:48 ]

I am so happy we're going to have a black president in the US.

# Rene says :
30 October, 2008 [ 20:07 ]

Pablo,

I'm so disappointed that you do not give any credit to my country, The Netherlands, in the exploitation of South American wealth...lol We lived well off the gold and silver that we robbed from the Spanish fleets. We even have a folk hero, Piet Hein, who made the largest catch in our history. Even my savings account I had as a kit was called after that catch, the "Zilvervloot". As a proud Dutchman I wish to receive some credit for the bad future of your country.

Now serious, I think the problem is not that a significant portion of the earths richdoms were taken away or that it is other countries that control them. I hear that a lot from Peruvians, blaming Spain, the US, the British and its own government for their misfortune. I think that it is that some of the south american countries still haven't figured out how to become a significant economy by themselves. Did the English invest a lot of money in America? No, America was supposed to yield money to the kingdom. Did they leave richdoms in "America" after the states declared independence? Maybe a little, but certainly not much. Still they managed to create the world's most powerful economy (regardless of debts). Did England leave India with much after they exploited them for tea and spices? No, but India is no longer a 3rd world country, it is a developing country. Did China have many richdoms when they became a communist country? No, but China is no longer a 3rd world country, it is a developing country. Did the English export richdoms to Australia? No, only prisoners and the guards. But it has developed itself to a first world country. Were many countries in Europe rich after the 2nd world war? No, they were devestated. But they managed to get back on their feet and become relevant in the world's economy again.

How did they do it? By speaking English, embracing their enemies for the sake of export and by developing their countries bottom up. Is there any poverty? Absolutely, maybe worse in India and China than in Peru. Is there corruption? Absolutely, especially in China. But they all believe that they can do it, think long-term and are no longer blaming other countries for what they are.

Sure, you can have your opinion about what the US did in Iraq or other countries. Would that have different outcomes for Peru? Not really. The only thing you can say is that if it goes well in the US, things will trickle down to the Peruvian economy as well, just like many other countries in the world. But it is up to the Peruvian government and thus also the people who vote for the government to determine what to do within the borders.

Cheers,
Rene

# Rene says :
30 October, 2008 [ 20:10 ]

Is it because he's black or because he's a democrat? And how would being black benefit Peru? The biggest race-rivalry within the US is currently between blacks and hispanics. Your remark is either racist or I do not get the point you want to make.

# Christian says :
30 October, 2008 [ 20:12 ]

I do not think your quaint little country of the Netherlands is significant in the world either.  It is too bad that you the Dutch are not so interested in an exotic, mysterious country like Perou.  We, the French love Peru!....I grew up dreaming of some day visiting the country des Incas. When I did, I was not disapointed, everything I envision was true and better. My passion is archaeologie and I wish I could live there all the time. I live two years in Trujillo 2004-2005, I was studying there, but time was flying for me. We have a phrase in France.....c'est le Perou!  This means something is great, if something is not as great we say, ce n'est pas le Perou. This is how much we think of this country.  We know this phrase was made because of the gold of Perou, but the French are still enamored about Perou. I know many friends who go there and take many photographs. My friends and I, we think Peru is taking big, big steps for the progres. Alain was not so good before a Peruvian friend told me, but he say Alain is better president now. I can see this! I saw the big difference when I return to Lima, Trujillo, Arequipa this June. People have to be aveugle (blind?....sorry, I left my dictionary at my flat) not to see this!  In my opinion, some writers are not juste when they express their thinking about Perou, is a pity.

I do not understand why you are mechant....(I think the word is mean ?)to Peruvian peoples.  It is rude to write such things to your host country.  I think this woman Olinda is very logical and she loves a lot her country...this is ok.  She just says not to insult her country, some letters are too long to read, but she ask this many times. Writers do not respect this, is not very good, non?  That is what I have to say.

# Mike says :
30 October, 2008 [ 21:08 ]

Yeah, I am not sure what Ellen's comment about Obama is supposed to mean, and certainly makes no sense here.

Hey Ellen, do you know how black people are treated in Peru?

As for the Netherlands, here are a few things to their credit:

  1) A dutchman created the first telescope.

  2) A dutchman created the first submarine.

  3) Gin.

  4) Great Explorers of the world.



They are respectable people who have brought more than a few things to civilization.

# Rene says :
30 October, 2008 [ 21:14 ]

Christian,

Is that last statement directed to me or to everybody here? If it was meant for me, then I do not understand where you read anything mean to Peruvian people in my words? And I do not live in Peru, as many others contributors I'm only related to Peru through my love for (at least some) Peruvian people.

And its fine that Olinda loves her country, but she does a good job herself to insult others as well. I do not think she needs any defence for that. And I think this whole story started with a (sort of) insult to me while I had said nothing negative about Peru, only expressed my opinion about what Alan Garcia has said according the article. I agree that some can put their opinions about Peru in other words, but so need the Peru defenders. It seems they are incapable of discussing aspects of Peru that need improvement without becoming nationalistic, while accusing americans (and now also non-americans) of their nationalism.

And who says that the Dutch are not interested in Peru? Every year there are many, many Dutch tourists in Peru. There are also many Dutch married with Peruvians and living in Peru and there are many Dutch volunteers and development workers active in Peru, often funded with money from the Dutch. The only thing I said is that in history classes we do not cover Peru or South America as a whole, since it has not played a significant role in our history other than indirectly. And my country has played a significant role in the world's history. We battled with the large empires for areas such as what is now the USA and Canada, South Africa, Brasil, Surinam, India, Indonesia and others and we are responsible for the migration of many people from Africa to the Americas. And as far as my country is relevant for the worlds economy, the GDP of my country still ranks among the 20 largest economies of the world. Not bad for such a quaint little country, isn't it?

And whether or not Peru is better off under Alan Garcia I believe was not the subject of this topic...

# Pablo says :
30 October, 2008 [ 21:32 ]

Rene

I never said that it was Spain's or anyone else's fault that Peru or South America were poor. I didin't even refer to the exploitation of resources.

That has nothing to do with why my country is poor now. Also "developing economy" is the name for 3rd world countries, i can see that your knowledge of world economics and history is very poor since you might've missed the fact that for the past 7 years (2001-2008) Perú has grown by a lot, this year our economy will grow 9.8%, and it will continue to grow inspite of the financial crisis, we are well guarded, but the effects will be felt, in 2009 growth will be 6.8%, still an impressive amount, but not as much as the previous years.

Now you speak about World War 2, ha i really think you were just kidding, the Marshall Plan, officially European Recovery Program of the US was the reason Europe got back on its feat, so it wouldnt be takenover by Communist regimes and an allied of the Soviet Union.

The amount of money that was invested in Europe was 13 billion US dollars, but take into account that 13 billion in that time was enough to reconstruct the whole of western Europe, now The Netherlands recieved 1.128 Billion, not a small amount, considering that the UK recieved 3.297 Billion. Of course is the merit of Europeans to have used that money in a good and productive way.

Now, your hero is a Pirate, is that right?  I think i don't have to say much on that barbaric comment of yours.

# peru@romagnoli.us says :
30 October, 2008 [ 21:41 ]

Pablo;

Name some Peruvian inventions or contributions to the world.

I mean aside from pisco and whining.

# David N says :
30 October, 2008 [ 21:46 ]

Poster above:

Didn't the potato originate in Peru?  That's a significant contribution.

# Mike says :
30 October, 2008 [ 21:46 ]

Pablo;

Name some Peruvian inventions or contributions to the world.

I mean aside from pisco and whining.

# Mike says :
30 October, 2008 [ 21:48 ]

Hmmm...cultivating an already existing plant?  I guess, but it's not like they made it even close to its modern form - that took Europeans and Americans.

Tomatoes would suit as well in that vein.

# Pablo says :
30 October, 2008 [ 22:01 ]

Of course we were the ones that made Potato what it is now, i mean does any of you guys has ever come to Perú? We have more than 3000 types of Potatoes.

 Now, a famous Peruvian? sure just this guy Pedro Paulet, that invented the first liquid fuel engine in 1895 and not only the engine but also the fuel to run it.

Mikey, mike "an already existing plant" i mean, haven't civilizations throughout time cultivated and improved "already existing plants and animals" i mean c'mon. 

Now, whining? you are all whining that Peru is this or that, just leave us alone if you don't like Perú. And if you know Peruvians that trash Perú, then don't assume we are all like that, many of us LOVE our country, that's why we are making it better, and the things our ancestors did or did not do, that in the past we are building a better Perú NOW and that's what matters. We'll contribute to the world and invent new things we are in the right path now and nothing will stop that.

# Mike says :
30 October, 2008 [ 22:16 ]

Ok, I was being a bit harsh there, I apologize.  Peru deserves alot of credit for potato cultivation.  Good thing my wife doesn't read this; she worked at the IPC for awhile and would probably be pinching my ear pretty damn hard for not giving Peru credit ("sin verguenza, chico malo!").

As for Paulet; maybe, maybe not.  Damn shame he didn't have any witnesses for pretty much all of his work.

Goddard is the father of liquid engine rockets.

# Devilmaycare says :
30 October, 2008 [ 23:03 ]

Below is the mission statement for LIP:

Living in Peru's mission is to provide people who plan to travel or move to Peru with all the information they need to make the right decisions before they depart, and while they're here. We aim to create ambassadors for Peru; people who will spread the good word about Peru's many virtues, and urge their friends and family to visit this beautiful country.

If I am correct this states all the information about Peru not just the cotton candy version. Once someone tries to do just that they get attacked. Maybe someone should teach these attackers how to be better ambassadors to the visitors of this site. They are begining to change my view about Peru as a whole. I had thought it was a great country struggling with its problems and poverty but now I see it also struggles with racsim and hate. I can stay home and get that. Peru has many virtues but like any country it has its problems as well but don't anyone dare talk about them.  

# Rene says :
31 October, 2008 [ 01:13 ]

Pablo,

If I may refer to wikipedia, it states there:

The terms utilized when discussing developing countries refer to the intent and to the constructs of those who utilize these terms. Other terms sometimes used are less developed countries (LDCs), least economically developed countries (LEDCs), "underdeveloped nations" or Third World nations, and "non-industrialized nations". Conversely, the opposite end of the spectrum is termed developed countries, most economically developed countries (MEDCs), First World nations and "industrialized nations".

Based on that I believe that I used the right terms, didn't I? And I do not think that all 3rd world countries have a "developing economy". Yes, I have noticed that Peru has a growing economy. They are actually outperforming most SA countries. But that does not mean that Peru is not poor anymore, does it? Nor does it reject the idea that over the last century Peru has not grown that much compared to the developed countries. But we might actually upgrade Peru from third world to least or less developed country based on the definitions above. But many Peruvians do not see much of that growth and are very unsatisfied. So lets just hope that the next elections are dominated by the negative feelings and a different type of government will take seat and will turn all that growth around again...

May I also quote Wikipedia about the effect of the Marshall Plan:

There is some debate among historians over how much this should be credited to the Marshall Plan. Most reject the idea that it alone miraculously revived Europe, as evidence shows that a general recovery was already underway. Most believe that the Marshall Plan sped this recovery, but did not initiate it.

So we were already on our way and just got an extra push in the back. Many thanks to the Americans for that. And as far as the contribution to the Netherlands was a lot compared to the UK, the contribution was mostly per capita. But didn't the Peruvians get a lot of financial help in the past either? And they didn't have to rebuild after a war.

Unfortunately you have not seen that my remarks regarding my favorite pirate, or better, state supported pirate, was pure sarcasm. I guess you're so busy making personal attacks that you forgot to laugh a bit. And no, indeed, you did not explicitely say that that was the reason for SA countries being where they are, but I read that between the lines and combined that with what I hear from many Peruvians. And is the line "the Spanish took all the gold, millions and millions of pounds of gold from our lands" not implicitely saying exploitation?

You have a lot a of information at your disposal, but unfortunately you pick only those parts that are relevant for your cause and you forget to interpret the information properly. Subsequently you make negative personal remarks, I guess to make yourself feel better. That my friend is not the way to have a constructive discussion. I'll just leave it as it is.

Cheers,
Rene

PS the potatoes as we cultivate nowadays all around the world seems indeed to come from somewhere in what is now Peru. But Europeans started cultivating it in 1536, shortly after discovering SA. I don't think that you could state that the country of Peru, independent since the 19th century, has had much influence on how the rest of the world made a big staple out of just a few varieties. Do you?

PS about Pedro Paulet: who? As for what I find on Wikipedia about him, it seems like a never-ending story. A Peruvian or Peru has something, does nothing with it, but when it becomes commercially attractive thanks to the efforts of others they wake up and start claiming that they were the first and have all the rights. Maybe a little lack of entrepeneurship...

# Pablo says :
31 October, 2008 [ 01:16 ]

Wikipedia? are you serious?

# David N says :
31 October, 2008 [ 01:58 ]

Rachel and Pablo --

OK, this is basic high school history.  Back during the Cold War, there was the 'first world', which was industrialized nations aligned with the US, the 'second world', which was nations aligned with the Eastern Bloc, and then the 'third world', which were economically disadvantaged (ie poor) nations aligned with neither one.  Peru fell into the last category.

Since the Cold War is over, this is antiquated terminology.  The preferred term now is 'developing nation', which makes first, second, or third irrelevant, and which Peru is now classified as.  One cannot lump Peru together with lesser developed nations in places like Africa or Haiti anymore, Peru is significantly more developed and politically stable.

# Siobhan says :
31 October, 2008 [ 01:59 ]

Rene and the rest of you guys:  I just read this column and aren't you being nit-picky?? What's this!..."Harrass a Peruvian Day"?  I don't get it.....what's the point? there's a lot of doublespeak here.  The most outstanding line of the LIP mission, submitted by one guy says: "We aim to create ambassadors for Peru, people who will spread the good word about Peru's many virtues and urge their friends and family to visit this beautiful country" . So......which one of you guys is extolling the virtues of Peru and who's making it inviting for people to visit here?  You sound more like "the enemy".

So, what's the Peru bashing about?  I perceive harrassment and abuse here.....like you guys are ganging up on Pablo, but he's doing a good job of defending himself.  This is sooo.. disgusting!  Like Pablo says: "just leave us alone if you don't like Peru"  What wicked pleasure do you get out of doing all this research on the internet just to make Pablo feel like he's holding off all of you guys with a sword!  The irony is that he is succeeding in fending you off. Just stop this persecution, please.  When I go to this website I hope to learn more about the positive things of Peru while I'm here....but it's a bummer reading some of this junk from you guys! (daredevil, mike and david). Whatever happened to goodwill!  Give it up!  I have a name for the three of you but cannot write it on this column.

# jcwong says :
31 October, 2008 [ 04:12 ]

I'm curious why the people on this forum that
are citizens of the usa think it's appropiate for them to be defensive about their country but not for everybody else?

I'm also curious why they think they can be selective about the positive contributions (money donations, inventions?) the usa has given many countries around the worl but not the negative ones.
I guess giving billions? of dollars (to whom?) is ok but bringing death and misery to hundreds of millions over decades (war, political instability, support of brutal dictatorships, etc) can be safely ignored?

mike, 12 years of schooling is more than enough time to learn about world history, the world did not start 200 years ago, really, you dont make good arguments.

the potato is not an important contribution from peru to the world?

who could be so ignorant to say such a thing?

A PEARL:

....."Rachel and Pablo --

OK, this is basic high school history.  Back during the Cold War, there was the 'first world', which was industrialized nations aligned with the US, the 'second world', which was nations aligned with the Eastern Bloc, and then the 'third world', which were economically disadvantaged (ie poor) nations aligned with neither one.  Peru fell into the last category.

Since the Cold War is over, this is antiquated terminology.  The preferred term now is 'developing nation', which makes first, second, or third irrelevant, and which Peru is now classified as.  One cannot lump Peru together with lesser developed nations in places like Africa or Haiti anymore, Peru is significantly more developed and politically stable.".....


this is what 12 years of usa public education produces?

what would you call a country that just imploded economically? the 0 world? an undeveloping nation?

Another Pearl:
from Rene (about potatoes)

..."But Europeans started cultivating it in 1536, shortly after discovering SA...."


...But we might actually upgrade Peru from third world to least or less developed country based on the definitions above. ..."

(you should travel a bit around the states say the south or nebraska, texas,etc even in places like NYC, you see the 1st,2nd, 3rd and fourth worlds)


LOL

I didnt know Florida was a capital city either.

The dutch used to send a lot of pirates around in the not so distant past, didnt they? A great nation indeed,
their contributions to mankind are just incredible, particularly after they discovered SA. I guess your comments about the USA reflect your gratitude for ww2 saving you from the germans and all that.

I think you should read the first few posts to see why many peruvians reacted so negatively.

# rice and sugar says :
31 October, 2008 [ 09:57 ]

David N.
I may have been a bit offended by a couple of comments you made before about Peru. But, as much as I love my country it is true that our problems are "elephants in the room". Peruvians, we are totally disappointed with our corrupt governments. But that is the world. I am biochemist / geneticist. I have worked with and met many gringos, great people. Human beings, we can all be either hard-working or lazy - it has nothing to do with being American or Peruvian. I know you understand that. In your previous comments you showed intelligence and sensitivity. But recently however, I don't think it is necessary that you voraciously begin to attack and attack Peru. It is like you enjoy poking on our open wounds. Sorry, I may have been the first to suggest that you and your spouse "need more comunication". I take it back. As a Peruvian wife myself, married to a non-Peruvian, I think it is nice of you to give your wife the chance to live in her own country - despite the fact that you don't completely adjust to everything in Peru. Wish you well to you and your family.
Just please cut the insults against Peruvians and stop the negativity. Enjoy your family. Peruvians, we do know how to enjoy our families despite the eternal economic crisis.
I hope Obama wins in the US! This would mean a lot for humanity across history. All human beings, regardless of our colour, with hard work and intelligence, we can make it in society. My genetics books will finally make sense!
(Please don't confuse me with a Peruvian shamen...)

# Devilmaycare says :
31 October, 2008 [ 10:06 ]

Here is the problem we "Americans" have. (Rene I'm sorry I guess you have been lumped in with us no good Americans.) Whenever we talk about Peru in anything other than the best light we are attacked, not our point of view, us. This site is called "Living in Peru" and we are here because each of us in our own way have an intrest in Peru. I have many a time defended Peru and its people but the one time I defended my country I was attacked directly.

If someone disagrees with my point of view then they should state that and make their points on why they think I am wrong. All the name calling is not going to change my point of view for the better.

In another words it is not going to make me a good ambassador for Peru, who will spread the good word about Peru's many virtues and urge their friends and family to visit this beautiful country.

It is very hard to indear poeple who are attacking you for a point of view. 

Why is it that Mericorps and I have both disagreed with some of the posts by other Americans for the name calling but people like Olinda and Jcwong haven't done the same with other Peruvian's like Pablo? Scroll up he was the first to attack Rene calling him ignorant. (oh and American, that could be called an attack too.)

Now if this site was called "Living in the U.S.A." and someone was saying how all is great in the good ol' US of A. then people like Mericorps and David N and myself would be writing something like "Are you crazy or just blind to the truth" Don't believe that? Go the the story about Obama here on LIP and see the comments made by some of us Americans. 

We don't want to dump on Peru or its people but we also don't want to be attacked for our points of view either when we state that Peru isn't the perfect place where all your dreams come true and the lion and the lamb live in peace. Lets keep it real people.

I happen to like what I have seen so far in Peru. Not all of it but as a whole. I also love the friends I have met in Peru and from Peru. I've stated that before. I have and will continue to defend the good things I see about Peru but I will defend my country for its good points too. I am not jumping on the (Bash the U.S. and its people) bandwagon that Olinda wants me to. 

As I stated above in another post I am not here to please anyone. I have and will continue to call them as I see em. If you don't like any of the things I write then simply scroll past my post. The power is in your hands.
 
   

  

# rice and sugar says :
31 October, 2008 [ 10:09 ]

Mike,
Don't forget that whatever contribution the Incans could have made to the world (agriculture, early astronomical knowledege, structural engineering,etc.), all of this was burnt by the the illiterate Spaniards conquistadors.
Do you know what "quipus" are? All Incan knowledege recorded in quipus was mostly burned as "witchcraft'?
Think of the genetically modified corn today. Do you think the Incans may have known something about crop agriculture?
Don't just judge "peruvian contributions" to the world as nothing.
Don't forget that hungry, malnourished children find it hard to learn at school. Innovation and creativity require good food in your mouth.
You eat much better than any other Peruvian children.
Don't just brag about it.

# David N says :
31 October, 2008 [ 10:21 ]

jcwong, that's how they're classified so choke on it. 

# David N says :
31 October, 2008 [ 10:33 ]

rice and sugar,

Look at the top.

I didn't start this thread, only tried to explain something to Pablo and then I got attacked.  If you expect me to back down it's not going to happen. 

The only Peruvian insulted was Garcia, and deservedly so.  Judging by his popularity, 80% of the country would agree with me anyway.

# David N says :
31 October, 2008 [ 10:44 ]

Devilmaycare,

Let me tell you as someone that has been around Peru and Peruvians for a long time...this forum is typical of Peruvian society. 'Outsiders' are permitted to have an opinion, but nobody wants to hear it.  It's easier to buy the government's propaganda than face reality.  Objective political criticism is taken as a personal affront, as evidenced on this page.

Heck, if someone criticized my congressman in the US on a forum, I'd be the first one to join in and agree.  Just doesn't work that way in Peru, the mentality is different, the minds closed.  Which is probably why the country never evolved further, even though it has vast resources and a hard working people.

# Oscar says :
31 October, 2008 [ 10:45 ]

Again comparing a G7 country against Peru!

Olinda, it does not matter how smart or how many degrees you have in Peru if you do not have the "right connections" or the "right recommendations" it is difficult to get a good job and therefore a good life.  Have you ever read the "clasificados de El comercio"?. Only people under 25 years old. etc. If your last name is Mamani or quispe, you only can work as a janitor or taxi driver. David N is right when he has seen taxi drivers with university degrees, Because I have seen them too

On the other hand, in countries like the USA you do not need to be a genious to a have a good life, it will depend on you if you make the right choices, but there are more opportunities for the US citizen.

Despite the fact they do not need it(to have a very deep understanding of everything) the US is the most competitite country of the world, with the best universities. And comparing an average american citizen with a graduate from Markham college in Lima is like comparing apples and oranges. Compare the poor US citizen with the poor peruvian family that live in the highlands with less than 30 $US dollars per month, with no health care, no money, no education, no future, unles they go to Lima as beggars.

Jorge Luis Borges used to say "In countries like Argentina and South America, we have too many thinkers, but we need doers. Like in the USA."

# Siobhan says :
31 October, 2008 [ 14:50 ]

JC:  sock it to them!  by far you have the most erudite comments......and you didn't run to look it up in wikipedia, either! You probably attended one of the fine national schools in Lima. "rice and sugar", I appreciate your intelligent contribution also.  Thanks for your support in helping curtail the insults and negativity coming from at least three individuals who are on an ego trip.  You can just feel the hate, arrogance and self-righteousness coming from them. They think we're too stupid to pick up on that.

I can't remember who said it, in another thread, that instead of whining about the ills of Peru....these guys should do something to fix some of them! Something productive should come out of all the c--p they dish out.....if they would only resolve and commit to make a dent on at least problem. But hey!.....maybe they will feel more "entitlement" then and will continue to lord it over this wonderful people. Hey "david n", wasn't John Kennedy who said: "ask not what your country can do for you...but what you can do for your country"? Well....if you live in Peru, maybe you should go for it!!  I do! I am not going to say what I'm doing in Lima to improve people's lots...but I am doing my part, believe me.  I'm studying here and I love every minute of it.  I DO see many serious problems.....but I know they will be taken care of in time. Alan Garcia doesn't have a "magic wand" to solve  the serious problems as fast