Living in Peru : your everyday companion

Peru: Miraflores nightclub fined 70,000 soles for discrimination

Living in Peru
Israel J. Ruiz

Peru's consumer protection agency has ratified the decision it made in May 2007 to fine the company Mamabars, owner of Mama Batata in Larco Mar, 70,000 soles for discriminating against Augusto Barrón.

According to police reports, Augusto Barrón was not allowed into the club on April 30 2006 and was physically attacked by bouncers outside the establishment.

Because of procedural flaws, the country's consumer protection agency dropped the case against the bar/nightclub in December 2007.

Another investigation was opened and it was announced this month that Mamabars would be fined 70,000 soles for discrimination.

On Sunday April 30 2006, Augusto Barrón was violently kept from entering Mama Batata bar by security personnel.

He was assaulted by Rodolfo Ortiz Checa, a member of the VIPS security company.

After being released from the hospital, a forensic pathologist determined that Barrón was legally invalid for nine days.

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# mericorps says :
19 August, 2008 [ 21:32 ]

I was admitted and my partner who arrived 5 minutes before me was not.  Without letting on, I asked the bouncer why and he told me..

You do not want them here.  I asked who are them?  He said Serranos.

I took my party of 10 gringos and 5 Peruvians and we left.  The manager came out offering us free drinks to come back and I said I would sooner eat vomit than associate with racists.

I hope this puts mamma out of business.

# cecilia says :
19 August, 2008 [ 21:35 ]

That night must have been a bad night for them. I often go to Mamma Batata with all types of friends and we never had problems to enter, I mean Afroamericans, chinese, Peruvians, etc.

# Splaktar says :
19 August, 2008 [ 23:34 ]

Sounds like it is more of a problem with the VIPS security company than with the bar.  Though the bar is certainly not innocent.  Glad to see they stopped tripping over their own feet and actually finished this case.  They need a lot more fines like this all over Peru.

# raquel manrique says :
20 August, 2008 [ 02:34 ]

It's a shame but to tell you the truth, there is a hidden racism in peruvian society.

Those kind of discos must be shut down on the spot.

Racism=ignorance=lack of knowledge/education.

# mateo says :
20 August, 2008 [ 08:21 ]

Raquel,

The racism is not hidden, it's pretty prevalent in Peruvian society. For example, the words "chino" and "cholo" are used in everyday conversations in negative connotations without the blink of an eye.

When family from Lima visits me in the DC area, they are shocked by how cosmopolitan we are!

Until Peruvian society can begin to accept and appreciate themselves as one people instead of different cliques within a country, a lack of jobs (brought on by such racism) and access to all of society will continue. This is the most frustrating issue I have with Perú.

I still do not understand why a person's age, photograph, etc. need to be included on résumés in this country.

So you see Raquel, this racism is not hidden, it is entwined with the Peruvian psyche. Perú needs a Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. to push for change!

# rice and sugar says :
20 August, 2008 [ 08:51 ]

Cholo soy, y no me compadezcan...

Glad to see Racism being punished in Peru. Racism lives in Peru since the 1500's. Good job, Mericorps.

Raquel, it comes from the Conquistadors. Illiterate, dirty, teethless Spaniards. Pirates, peasants: Pizarro was a pig farmer. They came to the new world to conquer. I don't think he even knew how to write anything down. In their ignorance they called the Incans "Indians", and it was them who used the word "cholo" first, meaning "dog".

Mateo, put it very well. Unfortunately, it is in the Peruvian psyche, and we would need a Luther King to push for change. We had a hero, Jose Gabriel Condorcanqui (a.k.a Tupac Amaru II). He did not make a speech like Luther King, but he bled and died for our race and our Incan heritage. He lost the battle because the Peruvian themselves betrayed him.
That is us. It is our inheritance from our patria mater - Spain. Unfortunately, most Peruvians, we are Mestizos. Mixed indian with Spaniard. Many of these mestizos want to hide their "cholo" genes, and only show the Spaniard heritage. The result is extreme ignorance, low self-esteem, and racism.

Change is slow, but it will happen. On the positive side, my mother called us "cholitos" and she meant it with love.

# rice and sugar says :
20 August, 2008 [ 09:08 ]

Just to add to my comment above,
I don't have anything against Spaniards in general (my brother in law is a highly-educated Spaniard, and he is great).
I am specifically referring to the Conquistadors, from whom we inherited our ignorant racism.
Also, being Mestizo (mixed race) might a good thing. After all, in evolutionary biology, the more genes mix within a species, the higher the chances for survival. In general, bio-diversity within a species is generally a good thing...
A diverse human population is good for our species.

# manco capac says :
20 August, 2008 [ 10:48 ]

Actually, being mestizo is ok, but why do they have to think of themselves as mestizos?  Why not as native Peruvians?  Even though they might have an ancestor who's European, don't most people of mixed blood look non-white?  Take the example from AFrican Americans in the US.  More then 50% of them are sambos or mulatos, which is Black race mixed with white or Brown(Native AMerican).  Still, they call themselves black/African American, even though one can clearly see some other race in there (i.e. Hale Berry, Vanessa Williams).  So Peruvians as well as other South Americans need to stop having this inferiority complex and be united with their native South American brothers and sisters and promote their native culture and pride! Like so many people say "Mestizo is the new Brown/Indian".

# rice and sugar says :
20 August, 2008 [ 11:04 ]

Manco Capac,
YOu are right, I may as well say I am just a native Peruvian.
Proud of it.

There is project run by National Geographic called the GENOGRAPHIC Project. THey are mapping human genes in all continents, trying to test and compare to anthropological and historiaol records, human remains, fossils, etc. It is a mega-genetic study. They are finding amazing things there. I gave my sample just for fun. It turned out my mitochondrial DNA has an allele similar to alleles found in the natives of North America. Cool. They are my cousins.
But Manco Capac, my grandma had green eyes, so I can't ignore my other side of the story. However, you are correct. We will honour the efforts made by Jose Gabriel Condorcanqui to say: Yes, we are native Peruvians, proud of it.

Bolivia is disgustingly racist against natives though. I think Peru is "heaven" compared to Santa Cruz, Bolivia.

# Splaktar says :
20 August, 2008 [ 11:50 ]

For examples of racism here in Arequipa, I have seen more than one protest in which the people chanted and had signs that read the following (in Spanish) "Throw the gringos out of Peru" "Death to gringos".  These were miners and farmers who had not been treated well by foreign companies (in Arequipa foreign also includes Lima).

We also have Ollanta who is out there stirring up racial hate on a huge scale.  Pointing fingers and blame at everyone foreign in Peru and trying to get people on his side to have them kicked out of Peru.  Not only does his hate mongering include racism but also hate for gays and other groups.  He has massive support in Peru by many other poor racist communities and individuals.

# jb says :
20 August, 2008 [ 13:13 ]

I built my house in Lima a year ago.  During the construction phase I actually had Peruvian riendsf ask me why I was decorating the maid's bathroom so nice?  I used the same tile as the master bath.  Someone actually asked me why I was planning to equip the maid's bathroom with hot water.  And these are not the pituco limoneans.  Normal middle class people. 

# Paul says :
20 August, 2008 [ 13:18 ]

Splaktar,

Racism experienced by "foreigners" is very limited.  Racism experienced by darker skinned Peruvians, regardless of race or ancestry is epidemic.  It is culturally and socially embedded.  Look at all the TV ad campaigns by big companies like Claro, BCP, Scotia ect.. all the people in their commercials are lighter skinned. Look at TV presenters, the same.  Occasional you see the odd darker skinned person thrown in for political correctness.  Strange when the darker skinned Peruvians are the majority.  It is such as shame that this creates a culture of aspiration where many darker skinned people see whiter as better.  And a culture that pervades most aspects of Peruvian society.

In no way am I a supporter or apologist for Humala.  However, you statements appear to be purporting the type of scare mongering you accuse him off.  I have never read or heard him say he wants foreigners kicked out, or stirring up racial hate.  He and his party are an inevitable consequence of the poverty, racism and social exclusion experienced by the darker skinned majority who have been ignored for too long now.
 
just my tuppence worth.

# Behave says :
20 August, 2008 [ 13:23 ]

Peruvian "society" had better start changing behavior and attitude or we will have a "palace revolt" and we will be thrown back into the dark ages like Bolivia - or worse, like Velasco.

# Splaktar says :
20 August, 2008 [ 13:35 ]

Paul, I guess you should read more of his older speeches and statements then.  Feel free to look them up for yourself.  He has toned some things down lately for political correctness, but that's just him lying so that he can gain power.  He still makes racist statements at his rallies though.  But he no longer talks about mass murdering forgeiners and gays in plaza Grau.

# Mateo says :
20 August, 2008 [ 15:10 ]

I think I will start my own company and employ *anyone* who is qualified. My advertisements will consist of multi-ethnic people working together to achieve a common goal (whatever my product will be...tangible or intangible), and I will not discriminate based upon skin color, who your parents are, or where you are from. Equality for all!

Now, to think of a product.......

# Paul says :
20 August, 2008 [ 16:12 ]

Hmm a product indeed.  

Yeah I am sure he has toned down, he is learning politics and PR.  If memory serves me right it was his mother who made the gay comment during the last election campaign.  Just making the point that the racism that exists in the majoirty affects peruvians who are more of native descendents.  Its a racism that exists worldwide, not just in Peru.  And like BEHAVE says when you have so many disenfrnachised people, you so the seeds for Mr Humala, or someone like him.

# Mary says :
20 August, 2008 [ 20:01 ]

I truly think and passionately believe that the Peruvian society have changed comparing it to 20 years ago, but...because us human beings learn by example, not only some fair-skinned Peruvians discriminate those who are dark skinned and mostly with indigenous characteristics, but those indigenous characters that once lived in the Peruvian Sierra or the Selva when they move to Lima, will discriminate against those who just arrived to the big city. Just see USA with people from all around the world, the discrimination is horrible and you live it everyday, not only if you are black or hispanic but even if you are white. In Asia, Koreans were discriminated in Japan just for being Korean they would be treated as low-class citizens and we're talking about humans that share the typical asian look...so, bottomline, discrimination will only exist while ignorance exist, while our leaders don't invest in education. In the USA, the hispanic community will no longer be a minority within 20 more years, but it will be an uneducated majority, we should not let this happen to Peru. Education is the key to survive in the world as a culture, as a nation with no colors.

# Rachel says :
20 August, 2008 [ 21:27 ]

Even Mexicans in the United States comment about how Peruvians are racists.

I don't think racism is exclusive to Peru, I'm sure there are other SA countries that are equally as guilty.

On another note, my father-in-law flew in to Peru through Sao Paolo and he commented how one can get into trouble if they make racist comments against afro-brazilians. The Peruvians he told this story too were quite surprised by this fact.

The idea of racism and prejudice was passed down by the Spaniards.

# Lucho says :
20 August, 2008 [ 22:44 ]

When a person says racism is hidden in Peru, it is meant that it was not official government policy as it was in the US where it was institutionalized.
Peru is indeed a very racist country. Numerous examples have been given above; however, I want you to consider the following:
We have had presidents like Toledo (a cholo) and Fujimori (a chino who could not even speak proper Spanish). What country of the world can show something like this? In a year in which the US, for example,  has such an unpopular president, you would expect the democrats to be heavy favorites, yet polls currently show McCain and Obama neck and neck. Any guess why?
Something that is very hard for people outside the Spanish speaking countries to understand is that racially descriptive words do not necessarily have a negative connotation. Fujimori is called chino by his fans, Sotil is called cholo, and Agusto Cavero, Zambo. The darkest person in most families is usually referred to as negro by other family members. They are used as affectionate terms in these cases.
My wife was talking to a Chinese-American once, who said my sons looked Chinese. My wife explained to her that her grandmother was a coolie (Chinese unskilled worker), the lady answered that in the US, coolie, while having the same meaning, was used as a racial slur.
Somebody mentioned the Spaniards being the root of our racist evils. Have you noticed that the only societies in America where there is a large indigenous population are Spanish speaking societies, the only countries where there are large mixed (white and another race)populations in the world are former Spanish colonies? Did you know that miscegenation was illegal in the US until the 1960's? You may say indigenous people have almost totally been wiped out of Argentina, Uruguay, etc. True, but those countries also had more non-Spanish immigration.
BTW the term indian has nothing to do with Pizarro but rather with Columbus believing he had arrived to India, therefore, the name the West Indies for the islands he visited in the Caribbean.
I guess the point is Peruvians are very racists. Unfortunately, anti-discrimination laws are not consistently applied, but we are no more racists than other countries.

# Lucho says :
20 August, 2008 [ 22:52 ]

Sorry,
I meanto to say "miscegenation WAS LEGAL."

# Bob Escobar says :
20 August, 2008 [ 23:33 ]

unfortunately Peru is a very racist country...I remember when I was a kid growing up in Chosica, I attended Santa Rosa de Chosica and La Escuela Americana in Chaclacayo...many of the so called peruvian anglos always descriminated the peruvian cholos/mestizos....somehow peruvians love to do that, for the last century white peruvians love to feel superior than the
"mostly" peruvian population of cholos/mestizos....I ask all peruvians living  in our beautiful country...why can't we accept the cholo/mestizo race????
by the way, our soccer (futbol) team is absolutely terrible....feed the poor, invest in our youth through education, help the needed, support youth sports and be proud to say...I AM PERUVIAN!!!!

# Paul says :
21 August, 2008 [ 00:18 ]

Lucho,

You are right many people use such words as terms of endearment.  That is not racism. 

However, the point of discussion is that Peru discriminates against people from a more native descendcy, and that is pretty much irrefutible.  

The colour of your skin can and most likely will, at some point, affect your life in a negative way in Peru.  It is changing though. In past five years I have seen it, albeit very slowly and with a long long long way to go.  With the growth of the economy, the blue collar employment market, i.e. San Isidro ect, is experiencing a shortage of supply of  workers.  What 10 years before would have an exception for a "cholo" to have this type of job is now becoming the norm.  This type of change can't come quick enough. 

# Devilmaycare says :
21 August, 2008 [ 05:24 ]

We are all striving for the same goal. As far as difference go, we should not tolerate them. We should be adventurous and explore them. Learm from each other and teach each other only then can we grow as humans.

In Peru as well as in The U.S. and many other countries of the world racism is alive and strong. I read here that Peru needs a Dr. Martin Luther king Jr of its own, I don't agree at least not yet. First it needs supporters, that's you and your families. Before a civil rights movement leader can emerge there needs to be a movement. If the people of Peru don't start the movement then all hope is lost before it ever starts. What needs to be remembered is that Dr. MLK did not stand for black rights against the whites. He stood for equal rights for all humans. He was the target of racists of both colors black and white. Unlike Jesse Jackson & Barak Obama as well as others after him who twisted his message, Dr. MLK wanted all races to be treated equal. 

If Peru can stop its self from making the same mistake that the U.S. had made and strive for equal rights instead of quota systems and compensation which only breed racism then Peru will be the real Superpower Nation.   

# rice and sugar says :
21 August, 2008 [ 09:09 ]

Querido Lucho,
The term 'indio" comes from Columbus, yes. I just included Columbus within the "conquistadors" group (although, I know he is not truly a conquistador, but more lie an explorer, discoverer, etc. but he was sent by the Queen and King...so. I don't have time to review the whole history). Of course, the English were also racist with native americans, and racism is all over the world. But in Peru, our racism comes from colonialism, which happened to be Spanish colonialism - not Enlgish or French.

One question, when have you ever heard Fujimori speaking an improper Spanish? Do you have a quote? I believe el Chino speaks Castellano much better than many Peruvians (uneducated of course). That fact is just WRONG on your side. People question his place of birth (Japan or PEru?), but the fact that he masters Castellano has never been questioned- not that I recall anyway. Fujimori does not speak Japanese though, he must be learning it. El Chino masters Spanish just like any other Peruvian. The fact that you and I speak English, means perhaps that we have not nailed our Castellano as much as el Chino. He speaks better than you and I- probably anyway. (I was educated in Peru my whole childhood and adolescence. But did university in North America. Je parle francais aussi. So, while learning other languages, of course I did not practice my Castellano as much as I would've had I styed in Peru the whole time)
VIVA LOS CHOLOS! VIVA EL PERU! VIVA EL CHINO!

# Paul says :
21 August, 2008 [ 11:51 ]

Yep it sucks that you have to be Peruvian to be president.. cause if I was king of the world..or at least president of Peru... we would all be on here talking about how great life is ;)  And I would put garcia on public trial..  for the haneous crime of being annoying and disturbing my happiness.

# Trevor says :
21 August, 2008 [ 14:18 ]

I have been related to Peru in one way or another since my first project here in 2000, where we hired approximately 500 Peruvians for a tourism project.  An interesting experience.

Racism (and similarly relavent other "-isms," say...ummm..."classism" comes to mind) still exists here.  So does it in Spain, and the USA, and Holland, and Rwanda, and Italy, and I suppose Sweden too.

In my near-decade I have seen and experienced "racism" in just about every form.  And in every successive year, I generally have seen and felt "less."

It is time that we dont just focus on the social and economic ills that affect the country where we have decided to live as expats, but celebrate the incredible successes.

Money is being made (and spent) in the conos in previously unimaginable amounts.  Micro-enterprises are becong medium enterprises -- more often than not with someone at the helm who has (and surely continues to) experience "racism" one way or another.  OK.  OK.

Economic growth is creating more opportunity, and less room for race based decisions (though still high).  Just today Gestion reports a 13% monthly salary growth year on year JUST SINCE 2007!  Parts of Lambayeque have unemployment of less than 2%! 

Ask some of your Peruvian friends, or more accurately their parents, if they EVER imagined that in their lifetime a "cholo" (his word not mine) would be elected president.  So lets look at the medal count:  Peru = 1, USA = 0.  (and I for one think the USA has done a pretty good job over the past couple hundred years with people form literally every country on the planet...Witness the outcomes of Yugoslavia, the Caucasus, Indonesia, Phillipines and Iraq when not ruled by governments that reserve the exclusive right to kill.)

Methinks this little country has come a long way and deserves a pat on the back along with the kick in the shins I see so energetically tossed around in many prior posts. 

Incidentally, whatever gains or ills that came along with the Spaniards (regardless of their dental status) I personally would not add racism as an import.  Perhaps a read of Pre-Inca (and Inca) history might convince some people that racism here used to be a bit more extreme....eg "submit or die"  (yes, a model ALSO employed by the Spanish).

Yes we should be vigilant, yes we can lead by example, but lets also pause a moment and celebrate some successes as well. 

PS:  The few times I have been at that particular bar, I have never sensed that there was anything other than a ample "surtido" of clients.

# Lucho says :
21 August, 2008 [ 18:30 ]

I think I made it clear that there is a lot of racism in Peru. I only added that Peru was not necessarily more racist than other countries.

Regarding Fujimori, I have no issues with him being of Japanese ancestry. I mentioned above that my wife and children are of Chinese ancestry. I just said that Fujimori has issues with the Spanish language; however, I agree with Martha Hildebrandt (Peru's foremost linguist and ardent Fujimori supporter, and one of my least favorite Peruvians) that he speaks the way he does because he probably spoke his parents' Japanese dialect at home and did not learn Spanish until he started school. I'm sure anyone can google this information and find it online.

I went on "youtube" and searched "Alberto Fujimori." The following link leads to the first result:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3KyZtiJgm0

In Spanish, there must be subject-verb agreement in number and article-subject-adjective agreement in number and gender. I only listened for a couple of minutes and found problems at 0:22 noveciento, 0:44 más o meno, 1:09 los despacho regulares, 1:37 cuatro día a la semana, 1:52 preguntas insistente, 2:00 elementos militares y policiale.

Do I like Fujimori? No, I don't, among other reasons, because he carried out a program of forced sterilization (with US support) against the indigenous non-Spanish speaking people of Peru. That is not only racism but genocide. Just follow the link below:

http://www.pop.org/main.cfm?id=207&r1=2.00&r2=1.50&r3=0.06&r4=0&level=3&eid=474

I hope he pays for it.

# Lucho says :
21 August, 2008 [ 20:33 ]

Trevor,

Well said. I guess what I wanted to communicate was yes, there is racism in Peru, but look, we are improving. Look at two of our recent presidents; look at businesses being fined for racism. All this was unimaginable when I was growing up in Peru.
I don't look at it as Peru 1, USA 0. It has to do with comments (well intentioned I assume) from people regarding Peruvian reality and ignoring the reality of their own countries.
I hope everyone on this blog rejects racism.

Regards,

Lucho

# Mary says :
22 August, 2008 [ 00:40 ]

Ha...ha...ha...that was a good question Lucho...we really hope that everyone rejects racism and don't play a double faced act about it. I know it's hard to handle, but it's all up to us to make Peru change. It will be hard but not impossible.

# Raul says :
22 August, 2008 [ 13:08 ]

Check out a picture of the Barrón guy at: http://www.blogalaxia.com/post/mama+batata
He doesn't look like a cholo to me (and his last name isn't either).
Now take a look at some pictures of Mama Batata regulars at http://lima.2night.com/home , Bars section. Looks like skin color is not an issue at the front door (maybe being really wasted is).
So what can this guy be after? could it be money? or money? hey, maybe he wants money!!! yes, I think that could be it! Work you ******* dork!!!! and let good people be!

# Paul says :
22 August, 2008 [ 13:22 ]

Raul,

Not quite getting your point.  The guy got himself serious assaulted for fun?  All pre planned to make money? Doubt it. These are the photos you link to. 

http://lima.2night.com/photos/bars/103743/mama-batata

Correct me if I`m wrong.. but not too many "cholos" there.

# rice and sugar says :
22 August, 2008 [ 13:47 ]

Lucho,
You convinced me. I was wrong, I never realized El Chinito's Spanish had a few lapsus linguis. He still saved Peru's economy at time, an he still freed us from Shining Path. Though he may not have spoken so fluently, I am sure he writes Spanish well.
How much did you, Lucho score in the TOEFL, or Michigan Proficiency Test? or are you a native speaker of English? I had to write the TOEFL to enter university. Though I had an accent, I scored high enough to do my masters. And, I enjoy writing in English. Had a few of my letters to the editor published in North American magazines. My point is: it does not matter that Fuji did not speak Spanish that well anyway.

I also heard about the "sterilization" of the natives. HOWEVER, the president had NO control on which unqualified "nurses" got hired for this. Also, I heard about some fowl play, where anti-Fujimoristas got hired as "nurses" and "health professionals" and committed these crimes of sterilizing poor peoples. I definitely disagree with that. YOu are right that is Racism and crime.
But, while it is easy to blame EL Chino, I still believe it was not him, and his plan never meant to do this. I think it was either professional negligence and incompetence, coupled with a bit of fowl play from anti-Fujimoristas.

# Raul says :
22 August, 2008 [ 13:58 ]

1) The guy got himself serious assaulted for fun?
The guy and his three friends (yes, he wasn't alone, some friends uh?) took several pictures of the security guys and staff with their cell phones but not one of Barron's face after the "beating". The only pictures of his beaten face I've seen were taken FOUR hours later. Four hours... could it be this guy wasn't admitted in Batata and then went looking for trouble somewhere else and then got beaten?

2) All pre planned to make money? Doubt it
I also doubt it, maybe he came up with the plan the next day when he could think straight again.

3) Correct me if I`m wrong.. but not too many "cholos" there
According to some of the comments above we shouldn't be looking at any at all. I'm a regular at Batata, not fair skin, not blue eyes and never had any trouble getting in. Oh, yes, wait, once... they wouldn't let me in because I was too ******* drunk!!!

# rice and sugar says :
22 August, 2008 [ 13:59 ]

Lucho, Get OUT! I am typing this second message as I listen to Fujimori in the you tube link YOU sent. I had trusted you. You nit-picked and made things up.  I take it back!

His Spanish is just fine. The microphone hides some of the "s". Also, remember, he had a tongue tumor, right?

I have listened for a while, and I still have not found the subject-verb
DISagreements. His Spanish is fine here. Anyway, after the psychological and moral torture El Chino has gone through, of course anyone would speak a bit funny.

Merci beaucoup.

# rice and sugar says :
22 August, 2008 [ 14:23 ]

Lucho again,
I am sure you've met "shileans" and you know how, regardless of the fact that on average Chileans have a lower illiterate population than Peru, and despite the fact that they may be highly educated, the "shileans" never pronounce the letter "s" in any of the words they speak.

Even the Spaniards -regardless of their university education- fail to pronouce the "s" in many words. That has nothing to do with the fluency of the language, that is just their local accent and local language. Come on! Find a better argument than that.

# Chileno says :
22 August, 2008 [ 14:57 ]

Nosotro hablao perfectament gracia. Utede Peuano y su mentira de ******. Tienen gue prender gue el pico e chileno y sus mujiere son fea...

gracia pa ecucharme.

# Trujillano says :
22 August, 2008 [ 15:38 ]

This comment was deleted

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# paco y peco says :
22 August, 2008 [ 17:18 ]

Repost your comment

# paco y peco says :
22 August, 2008 [ 17:32 ]

chileno....chilean men are ugly, but their women are good looking....chilean women prefer a good looking dude like me than an ugly chilean man...

# Lucho says :
22 August, 2008 [ 18:59 ]

rice and sugar,

As the saying goes "no hay peor ciego que el que no quiere ver," so this is the last time I'm going to talk about Fujimori.

I assume you know who Martha Hildebrandt is: linguist, member of the Academia Peruana de la Lengua, ardent fujimorista, president of the congress during the Fujimori regime. She was interviewed by Beto Ortiz. Below you will find an excerpt of the interview, where she defends the way Fujimori talks (among other things) and does not excuse Toledo at all (talk about racism); you will also find the link below:

¿No fue muy drástica cuando, en la campaña del 95, criticó acremente a Alejandro Toledo por decir haiga? No.

¿Le pierde el respeto a una persona que habla mal? Yo puedo tener un enorme respeto humano por un analfabeto, por un rondero, pero, ¿respeto intelectual a quien dice haiga? ¡No!

¿Independientemente del respeto personal, ¿tiene usted respeto intelectual por la manera en que Fujimori usa el lenguaje? Es paradójico, porque él tiene un enorme vocabulario que usa muy bien. Pero no sé si por efecto del idioma de su infancia, que fue el japonés, tiene una casi sistemática falta de concordancia en el uso del masculino/ femenino y del plural/ singular. Eso yo no lo entiendo, tendría que estudiarlo como lingüista, es una cosa absolutamente mecánica y está en absoluto contraste con su vocabulario. Jamás le he pescado algún error en un tiempo verbal que sería muchísimo más grave.

Pero yo lo he escuchado decir miones por millones, y perguanos por peruanos. Ah, no, pero esos son errores de pronunciación. Todos los trujillanos dicen Trujío, miones de trujianos.

¿El presidente es norteño? No. Pero dice miones como los trujianos. Eso me deja tranquilaza. Decir perguanos no está bien pero esa g que se introduce es un fenómeno que se ha estudiado en toda América, no digo que es un rasgo culto, no lo es. Yo jamás he observado en él un mal uso de los verbos y lo mas difícil es la conjugación. Entonces, Fujimori se crió oyendo hablar japonés. Yo creo que como era el primer hijo escuchó japonés. Es un caso de segunda lengua.

¿El español es su segunda lengua? No lo sé. No sé si es un bilingüe de cuna, o un bilingüe escolar. El aprendizaje de una segunda lengua en la cuna es una cosa y el aprendizaje de una segunda lengua en la escuela es otra cosa porque hay una brecha que nunca se llena.

Entonces, podría perdonarle la vida a Toledo por decir haiga, porque tal vez su primera lengua fue el quechua. No, señor, haiga no es un quechuismo, es un rasgo de incultura en español.

¿Y decir perguano es un japonesismo? No sé, no sé nada de japonés. No podría decirlo. Tampoco estoy asegurando que el castellano sea una segunda lengua para Fujimori. Lo único que puedo decir es que esta falta de concordancia no tiene nada que hacer con el resto de su magnífico manejo del español.

 

http://www.betoortiz.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=456&Itemid=179

 

You asked a couple of questions about me. I am Peruvian and studied economics in the US. For the last six years I have been a teacher first in the US and now in the Korea. If you access the Texas State Board for Education Certification web page and look me up, (Luis Rivas) you will see my certification in bilingual, ESL, and Spanish.(It's all public record) . I have had probably 500 students who were learning a second language, and Fujimori's grammatical errors (if my experience is worth anything) are similar to those ecountered in the process of second language acquisition. Note that I never said that Fujimori was uneducated, I just said that Peru had elected a president who did not speak Spanish properly (meaning like a native educated Peruvian) and no other country had done something similar. Also, let's not bring in regional pronunciations. Fujimori grew up in Lima , and  it is Lima Spanish that counts; otherwise, I could tell my students that that the Spanish word for "benches" is pronounced the-l-koh (the Spaniards' c, the Puerto Ricans r, and drop the s as the Chileans do).

Finally, in the Nuremberg trials, many nazi leaders pleaded ignorance of the existance of the concentration camps and many neo-nazis today still deny the Holocaust.  People are free to believe what they want, but just remember, "those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it." Regards,

 

Luis Rivas

# Lucho says :
22 August, 2008 [ 19:10 ]

I meant "the Republic of Korea" and "fences;" terrible keyboarding skills.

# Raul Batata says :
23 August, 2008 [ 19:28 ]

Raul, looks like you are a Mama Batata Animal, . No, but seriously, your point are quite ridiculous. Please check these two reports on TV:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2g0bwJh-UVE (prensa libre, channel 4) and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2fcueuny7s&feature=related (90 segundos, channel 2)...there are some points here:
1. The guy was with ONE friend, not three...where dou you came up whit THREE?
2. Looks like not a very handsome fellow...not quite the "target customer"of a larcomar disco uh...
3. The S/.70,000 of INDECOPI sentence are a FINE, not a reimbursement for the guy....so, wheres the "master plan" of getting rich?
4. The police, the doctors, the reporters, the whole people where fooled around by this guy?...mmmm.......looks like a pretty smart fellow uh...
5. INDECOPI has REVIEWED the whole case....dou you think these lawyers are that careless?....and finally
6. You mean Mama Batata have never had a discrimination acusation?...well, please go to the APRODEH (human rights watchers) website and see for yourself.

Hope this will be helpful to the forist to get to their own conclussions.

RB.

# MBA says :
24 August, 2008 [ 10:28 ]

Raul, ...hello...?......are you there?...Maybe working late?...at Mama Batata?...haha....Larcomar has many acusations of racism, what is your agenda? Don't try to fool this people here. Cheers.

# Raul says :
25 August, 2008 [ 20:37 ]

Yep, working, travelling a lot, just arrived in Lima.
I don't like reading some guy saying my points are ridiculous, why can't people just stay away from insults and use plain facts?. It's ok with me if you like to base your knowledge just on what appears on tv but I tell you my friend, that is dangerous.

Agenda? what agenda? can't I just have a different point of view? you ended up being more intolerant that anybody.

I won't be appearing in this forum anymore, I see more insults coming my way and I won't like that. Maybe I can feel tempted to go to Indecopi crying because you all discriminated me and get this shut for good.

Just one final FACT: Barron said he thinks he was discriminated because of his AGE. Indecopi has said that there was NO RACE DISCRIMINATION but since Mama Batata hasn't been able to prove he was drunk, Indecopi says there must have been "some kind" of discrimination.

The guys at Batata had cameras installed after this, they would have been very helpful before. Hopefully they will keep liars away in the future.

So long.

Raúl

# Matt Damon says :
26 August, 2008 [ 17:10 ]

oh boy, here we go again....most peruvians are "cholos", why in the world a bar/restaurant descriminates one of their own?  if the "cholo" can't afford to pay for his drinks/food then I can see getting kicked out of the establishment, but if he/she "cholo (a)" can afford to pay...WHO CARES!!!!
let them eat/drink wherever they want and can afford it....Viva el Peru carajo!!!!  by the way....watch my next flick, you'll love it!

# MBA says :
26 August, 2008 [ 20:29 ]

Raulito, you did not answered any of my 6 points above. It demonstrate that you ARE a LIAR. However, you want more FACTS? Ok, here you have one. You say you protect your customers from drunks right?, but is it not true that ALL the "gentita" inside the disco ARE already drunk?!...yes, they ARE drunk, because YOU sell them ALCOHOL and only Gods (and the dealers) knows what else you sell inside. So, in that line, ANY person who is drunk ARE a danger for your customers....Well, it seems to me that every nite you will have to throw out at the 99% of the people at around, lets say, 2am, YES because they are drunk. These argument (I mean "the drunk excuse"), IS very weak. Also is weak the "the local is full" or "only for members" or "it is a private party"...all of this are very know excuses these local uses to DISCRIMINATE their target customer BY THE COLOR OF THEIR SKIN. Sad but true.

# manco capac says :
26 August, 2008 [ 21:15 ]

por ki no kieren ki u intri al ristorinti, is pur il culor di mi piel?? sirranu suy y sirranu siri. Yu kieru inburracharmi y darmi una trancadita, cumu ista il chulo sotil, tudavia juiga su futbol?

# manco capac says :
26 August, 2008 [ 21:15 ]

por ki no kieren ki u intri al ristorinti, is pur il culor di mi piel?? sirranu suy y sirranu siri. Yu kieru inburracharmi y darmi una trancadita, cumu ista il chulo sotil, tudavia juiga su futbol?

# MBA says :
27 August, 2008 [ 14:09 ]

Raulito.........are you there?......is it not lunch time at mama batata?, stop working!, haha.....I insist, you did not answered any of my 6 points above. It demonstrate that you ARE a LIAR. However, you want more FACTS? Ok, here you have one. You say you protect your customers from drunks right?, but is it not true that ALL the "gentita" inside the disco ARE already drunk?!...yes, they ARE drunk, because YOU sell them ALCOHOL and only Gods (and the dealers) knows what else you sell inside. So, in that line, ANY person who is drunk ARE a danger for your customers....Well, it seems to me that every nite you will have to throw out at the 99% of the people at around, lets say, 2am, YES because they are drunk. These argument (I mean "the drunk excuse"), IS very weak. Also is weak the "the local is full" or "only for members" or "it is a private party"...all of this are very know excuses these local uses to DISCRIMINATE their target customer BY THE COLOR OF THEIR SKIN. Sad but true.

# manco capac says :
27 August, 2008 [ 14:36 ]

il disgraciadu di raul mi rubo mi nubia mama occhio, il nu kieri ki yu la via y ahura istoi sin nubia. Il disgraciadu nu mi dija intrar a su risturanti y tini la cuncha di kitarmi mi nubia...lu odio

# Per Si Maq Ckai says :
27 August, 2008 [ 22:43 ]

This comment was deleted

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# manco capac says :
27 August, 2008 [ 22:57 ]

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# Camembert says :
28 August, 2008 [ 13:20 ]

Why do you allow denigratories comments such as Manco Capac comments and delete the one from Per si maq ckai?

# manco capac says :
28 August, 2008 [ 14:00 ]

hey listen buddy (Camembert), I wan an inca hero, I don't think you'll ever understand...oh well. By the way, where can I get a decent meal in Lima?
I'll be travelling with my entire family early next year and Raulito doesn't have to worry if we decide to stop by his place...we are all gringitos .
Can you imagine a gringo Manco Capac? 

# DJ Relax says :
29 August, 2008 [ 17:54 ]

It is true. These comments (I mean all Manco Capac's comments) are denigratory for peruvian andean and local indian people, because is making fun of the way these people talk it so-called-spanish language. 

Is it that the way you conduct your business?
 
How about to make fun of how a native american indian talks their so-called-english?

Please procede to delete these comments.

# MBA says :
1 September, 2008 [ 00:53 ]

The peruvian congress, as many others organizations like Aprodeh (human rights watchers), Ideele (legal defense institute) and others, also recognize and reject discrimination in Mama Batata, check this website:
www.congreso.gob.pe/biblio/pdf/ideelmail/idelmail_376.pdf

Now, will the defense of these guys also be: "they are drunk", "the want money!" or  "some people wants to make us to look bad", .....or maybe.....hey, maybe is a PLOT to acuse them of discrimination and racism!!!! What dou you think?

# The real manco capac says :
12 October, 2008 [ 19:26 ]

Hey, I'm the real manco capac who wrote back on August 20, 2008 at 10.48.  Not the Hispanic extremist who's been using my user name, mocking and insulting my native Peruvian people and ancestors.  You can tell the difference because I don't use derogatory words towards the Spaniards, hispanics and Latinos regardless of the harm they caused in the past and are causing today. 
By the way, a lot of hispanics use words like: Estas Huaman?, or pareces manco capac.  They do not mean harm, they have just been raised in a racist environment (family and society) who did not know that denegrating native Peruvian people was wrong.  As somebody said education is key.  I'm glad to see that less and less Peruvians are using those hurtful words.  If Peruvian people in schools were taught some basic Quechua (like kids in the US get taught basic Spanish or another language in school) they would understand that Huaman means 'falcon' in Quechua and Manco capac was a great leader that started a vast civilization, and that Latinos/Hispanics ancestors like Pizarro did horrible things, but it is ok to still care for their Spaniard culture as long as they don't trash the ancient and today's traditional Peruvian culture.  The false manco capac used the typical mockering of the Quechua accent when spoken in Spanish.  I wish an English speaker could start mockering this Hispanic extremist on how silly he sounds when he speaks English, or to tell them how silly a spanish speaker sounds when speaking Quechua. But that's how people learn, and speak. It does not need to be mocked since people who speak do it with courage to communicate in a new way. 
By the way, Mama Occllo means "the chosen lady", because she was chosen by manco Capac to build Tawantinsuyu (also known as Tawa-inti-suyu) which means four SUN territories or the four lands of the sun.  Runakuna Perumanta, Yachay Runasimita! (People of Peru, Learn Quechua): 
http://www.yachay.com.pe/especiales/quechua/